[QUOTE=msmith537]
Maybe he works at a store that sells men’s suits?
[/QUOTE]
Well said.
[QUOTE=tashabot]
Not a rebellion issue with me - I grew up in a T-shirt and jeans, so anything else tends to feel weird. However, I didn’t bitch, and when I was in a position where I couldn’t wear jeans, I wore as nice a clothing as I could. However, I’ve taken to shopping the clearance sections at Wal-Mart because even slobby clothing is expensive as hell; I can’t imagine how much I’d be forking out for nice clothing if I had to wear business casual or business attire. As much as I love my job, I could certainly use a pay raise, if only so I could afford new clothing for my job.
~Tasha
[/QUOTE]
Try consignment or Goodwill. Or garage sales.
I think I’m one of the few people who have never found jeans to be truly comfortable. When I travel, I try to avoid jeans (though sometimes I wear them because they are the bulkiest thing to pack. They rub wrong against by crotch, are too heavy, too restrictive in the waist, and weight about nine tons if they get even a little wet. Unless its January in Minnesota (in which case jeans to a fairly good job of keeping ice cold wind off your legs - wool is better, but itches - best is silk long johns with some sort of space age fleece stuff over the top), I’d rather be wearing khaki’s. And I know that khaki’s aren’t a suit, but I think that for many professions, the trick is to find the most comfortable version on what you can wear. I’ve been in very professional environments where - as long as the khakis are “dress” and you top it with a jacket - its “dressed up enough to be professional.”
[QUOTE=pseudotriton ruber ruber]
Why don’t more firms allow their workers to go nude in the workplace, or allow workers to blast non-stop music at high-decibel levels, or to roll themselves in honey and granola before reporting to work? The answers to these questions should provide you with the answers to yours as well.
[/QUOTE]
Yeah, not everyone can be a Unix programmer. 
[QUOTE=Dangerosa]
I think I’m one of the few people who have never found jeans to be truly comfortable. When I travel, I try to avoid jeans (though sometimes I wear them because they are the bulkiest thing to pack. They rub wrong against by crotch, are too heavy, too restrictive in the waist, and weight about nine tons if they get even a little wet. Unless its January in Minnesota (in which case jeans to a fairly good job of keeping ice cold wind off your legs - wool is better, but itches - best is silk long johns with some sort of space age fleece stuff over the top), I’d rather be wearing khaki’s.
[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I feel the same. Jeans always have stiff waistband and the heavy fabric doesn’t move with you. I almost exclusively wear skirts to the office and are much more comfortable than I would be in jeans and have the added benefit of looking professional without a lot of extra effort.
But, I think the reason a lot of y’all aren’t comfortable in office wear is because it’s unfamiliar to you. If you’re used to wearing jeans and t-shirts, those are natually your comfort clothes. If you wore dressier clothes frequently so you were used to them (and they fit correctly), you’d adapt. I see a lot of guys who say they hate ties and I can see it’s 'cause they haven’t bought a new dress shirt in forever and the collar is way to tight. I wish more guys wore ties more frequently; y’all dont realize how attractive a sharply dressed man can be…
[QUOTE=Sam Stone]
Maybe for women business attire is just as comfortable as casual, but not for men.
[/QUOTE]
That would depend on how it’s defined. I’m an engineer; I’ve worked in the US as a lab tech and as a business process engineer (redefining business processes as opposed to production ones). And in those jobs I had several run-ins with people who saw me around some office and remarked on my “lack of professionality”: I wasn’t wearing a labcoat (those should stay in the lab) but hand’t changed into their idea of professional attire. In the process job, one male boss remarked looking directly at myself and two other females that we should be wearing skirts and pumps; we asked him to turn around and please tell us whether he saw any of the guys wearing suits. If they were ok in jeans-and-shirts, we were ok in jeans-and-blouses.
Anybody who wants me to wear pantyhose, a narrow skirt that makes my hispanic hips look twice their size and high heels is cordially welcome to pay for the ensemble and for the chiropractor my poor back will require.
That said:
- people who chew gum often end up popping and/or chewing with their mouth open. MOOOOOOOOO!
- I don’t take jobs where I have to buy new clothes just so I’ll be in the right uniform; I’m very conscious about the very few items I own which are not considered adequate for my line of work here in Spain and don’t bring them to work.
- A bikini-girls calendar on the wall of an all-guys workshop doesn’t bother me. But if I went into the office of a department manager and saw a “spread eagle” centerfold I’d run to monster.es real, real fast.
- Ass-fart-pee humor didn’t make me laugh when I was 5, it still doesn’t.
- Music should be either agreed-upon or each his own. For heavy duty tasks I find heavy metal, ska and punk helpful, but I’m conscious that this isn’t the case for several billion other people. Muzak makes me sleepy. This isn’t a matter of profesionalism, simply of “togetherness”.
- I’m starting a new job on the 17th. I’ve been in the current job for less than 3 months; one of the things that bothers me most about my current boss is that he is never less than 2 hours late - yet he’s got the nerve to critizice me for leaving at the hour he told me (I’ve been there since the hour he told me). He’s the one who sets work hours and he’s the one who shatters them.
A lot of “profesionalism” is mere politeness, is thinking about “how will this affect others”; the music, the spread eagle, the lateness. Other things are cultural and vary with location/industry/time.
[QUOTE=tremorviolet]
I see a lot of guys who say they hate ties and I can see it’s 'cause they haven’t bought a new dress shirt in forever and the collar is way to tight.
[/QUOTE]
That’s exactly what I was going to say. You should be able to easily get two fingers between the collar and your neck. It won’t look any different and you won’t even feel the tie. I’ve gotten to where I don’t know what I’d do without a tie at work sometimes. What would I clean my sunglasses with? How would I carry a hot cup of coffee? Who says ties are useless?
Speaking of ties, one annoying thing I haven’t seen mentioned in this thread is people who try to get too cutesy with the business attire, with inappropriate ties, lapel pins and “personal flair”. I work in the funeral industry, where the professional standards are probably a little higher than a lot of workplaces, but I still see this sort of thing. Once at my local coroner’s office I saw someone from another mortuary wearing a freaking Looney Toons tie. Can you imagine? Who could possibly think it’s appropriate to talk to a new widow with Daffy Duck on your tie? Another time me and a new hire were getting ready to remove a body from a residence. He takes off his jacket, and there embroidered on his vest was a very loud picture of Betty Boop riding a moped. I made him take it off before we went in, but he just didn’t understand what was wrong with wearing it in front of a grieving family. This just defies common sense.
Now I’m sure a lot of workplaces are permissive of this sort of thing, but I’m sure a lot aren’t. To me, it seems like another rebellion issue, although slightly less dramatic than blowing off the dress code completely. It’s like, “OK, I’ll wear the stupid suit, but I’ll make a mockery of it with hula girl tie and a Homer Simpson pin.”
[QUOTE=Harvey The Heavy]
Now I’m sure a lot of workplaces are permissive of this sort of thing, but I’m sure a lot aren’t. To me, it seems like another rebellion issue, although slightly less dramatic than blowing off the dress code completely. It’s like, “OK, I’ll wear the stupid suit, but I’ll make a mockery of it with hula girl tie and a Homer Simpson pin.”
[/QUOTE]
I thought I’d just point out that kind of rebellion is generally not appreciated in a business environment. Many people have invested a great deal of time and effort in their career. They take their jobs serious because they need them for ‘working at’ and ‘goin’ to’ and such. Ridiculous ties sends a strong message that you don’t take it seriously and if you aren’t going to take it seriously, why should we risk hiring or doing business with you?
[QUOTE=Big Bad Voodoo Lou]
I work in law libraries and intern in a major metropolitan public library at the same time, so I wear a dress shirt, tie, and slacks every day. A lot of my work is physical, so there’s no need to wear a suit (especially since I travel around and don’t have an office or a constant base of operations), but none of the male public librarians I see even wear ties.
[/QUOTE]
Yeah, they don’t here either (although they did at the academic library I used to work at. For some reason the guybrarian dress code was much stricter than it was for the ladies.) I think we all ought to step it up a notch. I wear mostly nice pants or skirts with twin sets and such. The thing is, libraries are cold and if I wear a skirt on the floor sometimes I have to bring my blankie. I mean, Security has to wear jackets except on Fridays, shouldn’t we too?
We community college instructors don’t generally dress up too much unless it’s a matter of personal preference. I am not aware of any particular dress requirement except a general understanding that you should be dressed decently–but then the climate is taken into consideration as well. These days in So Cal, with its being so stinking hot, it’s not unusual to see college profs wearing Hawaiian shirts and Bermuda shorts, or dress shorts, or tank dresses. It’s the administrators that have to wear suits wherever they go, no matter what the weather is. Glad I’m not them.
[QUOTE=Diamonds02]
How does the following interfere with performance?
*Wearing jeans and t-shirts
*Listening to heavy metal or rap, instead of elevator music
*Having pages ripped from Maxim taped on your cubicle or office walls
*Having a GI Joe or Tweety Bird collection
I deal with some of the above in school, and I don’t think it interferes with my performance at all.
[/QUOTE]
Eh, conformity? Perhaps indoctrination as far as for the music.
[QUOTE=Lissa]
I’ve never understood the stated preference for jeans and t-shirts when professional-looking clothing can be just as comfortable. Honestly, I think it has to be a rebellion issue.
[/QUOTE]
The care and feeding of such clothing.
Even business casual is more expensive than casual casual and I can put my jeans and t-shirts into the washing machine for $1.75/load, not several dollars/item (and I can do it any time of day or night, and not worry about the dry-cleaner’s schedule and whether I’ll make it there on time or not.)
(And, for me personally, I would need to pay for tailoring for business suits; off the rack doesn’t fit. Don’t have to do that for denim.)
Plus, jeans don’t self-destruct the way panty-hose do.
If I had an unlimited budget and a service to take care of all my clothing, it wouldn’t matter as much. As it is, casual clothing is much more convenient. That said, I know the image I project in my t-shirt & jeans, and for me, it’s a worthwhile tradeoff at this point and time and in the situations I’m likely to find myself in.
[QUOTE=amarinth]
The care and feeding of such clothing.
Even business casual is more expensive than casual casual and I can put my jeans and t-shirts into the washing machine for $1.75/load, not several dollars/item (and I can do it any time of day or night, and not worry about the dry-cleaner’s schedule and whether I’ll make it there on time or not.)
[/QUOTE]
Honestly? Not really. The last pair of jeans I bought I got on sale for $50. The last pair of slacks I bought for work were $25, regular price. I wear both full suits as well as business casual, and I’m able to wash or clean everything at home.
I, too, have to tailor everything I buy because off-the-rack doesn’t fit. Which means that slacks are perfect because I can sew up a hem by hand on the bottom. Can’t really do that with jeans.
[QUOTE=Dangerosa]
The working world isn’t unfair (or at least no more unfair than anything else), the rules are just different. Is it unfair that if you are tall you are likely better at basketball? Is it unfair that if your mind works logically, you are a better programmer? Is it unfair that if you test well, you are likely to get better grades? And, in the business world, if you can behave in a professional manner, you will have more success than someone who announces their girlfriend gives great head in a staff meeting.
[/QUOTE]
What’s she doing giving great head in a staff meeting? :eek:
[QUOTE=XJETGIRLX]
Honestly? Not really. The last pair of jeans I bought I got on sale for $50. The last pair of slacks I bought for work were $25, regular price. I wear both full suits as well as business casual, and I’m able to wash or clean everything at home.
I, too, have to tailor everything I buy because off-the-rack doesn’t fit. Which means that slacks are perfect because I can sew up a hem by hand on the bottom. Can’t really do that with jeans.
[/QUOTE]
I have the exact opposite. My jeans range from $25-30. The last pair of slacks I bought was $80; the only other alternative in the store was >$100. (very long legs - most of the pants in the store couldn’t be let out long enough. You can always hem, but you can’t grow material) Plus, again, the jeans go in the laundry machine. Those slacks are waiting to be drycleaned. I don’t have one of those at home.
And t-shirts/sweatshirts “fit.” Or at least, they fit as well as they are supposed to. I’m shortwaisted with longer-than-average arms - so, I have to find something with enough extra material in the arms (which is hard because putting in smaller seams is a good way to save money) then have the entire thing restructured (darts moved and added, etc.) so that it falls right, which is beyond my skill with a sewing machine. And when it needs cleaning, it can’t go into the laundry machine (again, no drycleaner at home. I doubt my landlord will let me install one)
[QUOTE=Kozmik]
Eh, conformity? Perhaps indoctrination as far as for the music.
[/QUOTE]
Conformity in the business world is not necessarily a bad thing. It means consistency. When I have a job that needs done, I need to be confident that it will be done in the same manner with the same level of quality each time.
[QUOTE=msmith537]
Conformity in the business world is not necessarily a bad thing. .
[/QUOTE]
Taking a non-conformist stance is usually a person’s desperate attempt to prove to themselves that they’re special and unique because they’re tormented by the inner knowledge that they aren’t.
[QUOTE=Diamonds02]
How does the following interfere with performance?
(snipped)
*Having a GI Joe or Tweety Bird collection
I deal with some of the above in school, and I don’t think it interferes with my performance at all. Why is it so much different in many workplaces?
[/QUOTE]
Other than issues of “it doesn’t look professional” I can think of some other reasons for an employer to request people not bring their collections to work:
-
Impairment of efficiency-- in some offices, employees have just exactly enough desk to do their jobs, because of space considerations. (Some of us even envy the people with enough desk!) If you have space to put out half a dozen Star Wars Lego toys, you’re taking up space that you should be doing your work in. Also, you’re probably bringing in your toys every day and taking them home every night, which means either you’re arranging them on the clock, or you’re on my workplace premises for extra time every day… or see step 2.
-
Bringing “collectible” (i.e. valuable) items to work is D-R-A-M-A in the making. “Someone stole my $300 crystal Tweety Bird and I want it replaced”-- “Someone knocked over and chipped my Tweety Bird and I want to write about it in the office newsletter and bitch to all the employees”-- “Someone picked up my Tweety Bird and carried it off and took pics of it and emailed them to me with a ransom note!” And, for those of us who don’t collect that kind of thing, we have no idea to say what is and isn’t valuable, so just “no bringing valuable stuff to work” doesn’t work. (This could also apply to people who bring irreplaceable photos-- it’s just a heartbreak waiting to happen if, say, the office floods.)
-
Fire hazard or other hazard-- say I bring my collection of fluffy silk yarn to work and knit on breaks. If it catches on fire and the office burns down, you think the insurance company won’t try to fight paying for it with “we only insured you for stuff having to do with the business, not storing your employees’ spray cans and oily rags and wood shavings collections”? Also, what if I have something that smells interesting and a co-worker is sensitive to smells, like scented candles or potpourri?
If my employee wants to bring something to work while keeping in mind that it should be safe, not prevent them from doing their job, and something they don’t mind losing or replacing, and it’s not something that puts my business at risk (e.g. laptop from home with kiddy porn on it) then I’m pretty okay with that-- except that it lets me know they don’t have enough to do. :smack:
[QUOTE=Corrvin]
Other than issues of “it doesn’t look professional” I can think of some other reasons for an employer to request people not bring their collections to work:
-
Impairment of efficiency-- in some offices, employees have just exactly enough desk to do their jobs, because of space considerations. (Some of us even envy the people with enough desk!) If you have space to put out half a dozen Star Wars Lego toys, you’re taking up space that you should be doing your work in. Also, you’re probably bringing in your toys every day and taking them home every night, which means either you’re arranging them on the clock, or you’re on my workplace premises for extra time every day… or see step 2.
-
Bringing “collectible” (i.e. valuable) items to work is D-R-A-M-A in the making. “Someone stole my $300 crystal Tweety Bird and I want it replaced”-- “Someone knocked over and chipped my Tweety Bird and I want to write about it in the office newsletter and bitch to all the employees”-- “Someone picked up my Tweety Bird and carried it off and took pics of it and emailed them to me with a ransom note!” And, for those of us who don’t collect that kind of thing, we have no idea to say what is and isn’t valuable, so just “no bringing valuable stuff to work” doesn’t work. (This could also apply to people who bring irreplaceable photos-- it’s just a heartbreak waiting to happen if, say, the office floods.)
-
Fire hazard or other hazard-- say I bring my collection of fluffy silk yarn to work and knit on breaks. If it catches on fire and the office burns down, you think the insurance company won’t try to fight paying for it with “we only insured you for stuff having to do with the business, not storing your employees’ spray cans and oily rags and wood shavings collections”? Also, what if I have something that smells interesting and a co-worker is sensitive to smells, like scented candles or potpourri?
If my employee wants to bring something to work while keeping in mind that it should be safe, not prevent them from doing their job, and something they don’t mind losing or replacing, and it’s not something that puts my business at risk (e.g. laptop from home with kiddy porn on it) then I’m pretty okay with that-- except that it lets me know they don’t have enough to do. :smack:
[/QUOTE]
I’ve worked for companies that don’t want personal stuff on your desk, and find it a level of micromanagement that is insulting to my professionalism. But, hey, I choose or don’t choose to work there (usually, at that level, its too much of a pain in the butt to work there).
What is important for the person who chooses to decorate his desk with Star Wars figurines (or family photos, or whatever) or to wear “kooky” ties or band t-shirts or whatever, is that what people think of you is made up of many different variables. At work, only one of those variables is “how well do you do your job.” It may be the only one that SHOULD matter, but it isn’t. You are going to have your career impacted by how nice you are, how tall you are, how much charisma you have, what you wear, and what is on your desk. A woman with photos of her kids may have to fight the notion that she is always off doing kid things - rather than spend energy defending herself, she may choose to leave the fact that she is a Mom outside of the office. A person who wears Grateful Dead t-shirts to work may be fighting off the idea that he shows up occationally baked - even if he is just a little cold medicine impared. You don’t want your boss thinking you are showing up to work stoned - particularly when you aren’t.