What's the Big Deal About Robert E. Lee?

[Thing_Fish]

@Grumbacher_Red

Great! So glad we agree on that point. What distresses me is that these days all of them are getting lumped in together, when there is a clear difference depending on the era it was erected. I have no issue at all if a community wants to take down a statue of some dude on a horse looking all gallant blowing in the wind. Especially if he never lived there or isn’t buried there. It may just merely be a pretty piece of art to some, but to others it is not. Vote and let the people decide, and folks who are not from that town should have no sayso in the matter.

However, let’s not remove grave markers, battlefield plaques or other kinds of commemorations that honor fallen soldiers. Anything with CSA on it should not be fair game for the “Take 'Em Down” crowd.

What a pleasant surprise to read this thread scrolling backwards and discover you are actually a reasonable person!

I agree that there is a crucial distinction to be made between memorials to actual soldiers and statues erected to glorify Lost Cause mythology, and I agree that many people fail to make that distinction.

I do have to ask, though, are there many actual examples of serious efforts being made to take down the sorts of monuments we would agree are inoffensive? All the high-profile controversies I have noticed (and I’m clearly not following the issue as closely as you) relate to the post-1920 type monuments which we agree were placed with evil intent.

For example, there is a large Confederate cemetery in what is now a mostly African-American part of Chicago’s south suburbs (on the site of a former POW camp), and AFAICT no politically influential person in the area has ever had a problem with it. Racial politics in Chicago being what they are, I have a hard time believing it’s a problem anywhere if it isn’t one here.

[Thing_Fish]

@DrDeth

I agree.

But also let’s get rid of schools and army bases, etc named for traitors.

I would draw a distinction there. Mark Twain, for instance, is IMO America’s greatest literary genius and deserves to have schools named after him in every corner of the country. He was also, briefly, a Confederate soldier.

If white Southerners became known for great achievements in fields of science, art, etc, it’s OK to celebrate their accomplishments. We don’t need to condemn them as horrible people just because they held views which, while repugnant to us, were widely held by people of their time, place, and social position.

But if someone became well known PRIMARILY for their support of slavery and/or secession, their names need to come off public buildings. I personally would put Lee in that category, but acknowledge that he is in (no pun intended) sort of a gray area.

[DrDeth]

@Thing_Fish

I would draw a distinction there. Mark Twain, for instance, is IMO America’s greatest literary genius and deserves to have schools named after him in every corner of the country. He was also, briefly, a Confederate soldier.

If white Southerners became known for great achievements in fields of science, art, etc, it’s OK to celebrate their accomplishments. We don’t need to condemn them as horrible people just because they held views which, while repugnant to us, were widely held by people of their time, place, and social position.

But if someone became well known PRIMARILY for their support of slavery and/or secession, their names need to come off public buildings. I personally would put Lee in that category, but acknowledge that he is in (no pun intended) sort of a gray area.

Sure. And we will give Joseph “Fighting Joe” Wheeler a pass as he came back and served the Union during the Spanish American war. (He did have a propensity for calling the Spanish foes “Damnyankees”, tho…)

[Sailboat]

@Grumbacher_Red

Every Southern family had a story of a female relative who was traumatized some kind of way…aren’t we supposed to “believe the women”?

Well, yes and maybe. It could be argued that Southern Execeptionalism, the romantic Lost Cause filter, and the urge to win the war of rhetoric have rendered some Southern ladies unreliable witnesses.

Shelby Foote, whose sympathies were undeniably Southern despite his efforts to refrain from bias in his monumental history, once said that very nice Southern ladies in Charleston, South Carolina, proudly gave him tours of beautiful antebellum neighborhoods and later told him Sherman had burned everything (including those buildings) to the ground (a clear impossibility, as he had just toured the supposedly destroyed buildings). So rhetorical exaggeration of Northern crimes is definitely a thing, although whether and to what degree it applies in any given case surely varies.

[DrDeth]

@Sailboat

Well, yes and maybe. It could be argued that Southern Execeptionalism, the romantic Lost Cause filter, and the urge to win the war of rhetoric have rendered some Southern ladies unreliable witnesses.

Shelby Foote, whose sympathies were undeniably Southern despite his efforts to refrain from bias in his monumental history,…

Efforts to refrain from Bias? :eek: According to Foote, NBF was 18 feet tall, farted fireballs, and beat the damnyankees all by himself. Shelby *loved *NBF, who altho being a pretty darn good raider, was actually pretty bad when he was in command of a actual battle.

If you read the Oxford History, written by neutral British professors for the most part, NBF was mentioned once in a line about CSA cavalry raiders.

[Sloe_Moe]

@Urbanredneck

I will look around for it but there was a good story of a modern American family that owned a slave and how the family struggled with it.

Basically they were from the Phillipines and were “gifted” this woman back in the 1940’s who was their “slave”. Over time the family moved to America and the kids finally realized what was going on and who this person was. This of course caused alot of grief and the kids later persuaded the parents to try 1. sending her home which didnt work out and 2. treating her as an employee and with respect.

So what I’m saying is many people who had and still have slaves, the problem is what to do with them.

I come from a culture of “slavery” of this sort and I think the media and people blew this story way out of proportion. These nannies are similar to those in 19th century Europe who came to the city to work as baby sitters or nannies (free agents) or, as is often the case, got a referral from a friend/relative in the town where she grew up. This second set up is of course better if you think of all the horror stories about house help and baby sitters hired in-city.

They often work without regular pay, receiving free board and lodging. Now being hired under very informal terms (possibly in violation of labor laws) doesn’t automatically equate with slavery. There just comes about a full dependence on the hosts which, on the outside will look like some form of chattel arrangement. But it’s really becoming a part of the family. Who wouldn’t come to love one’s nanny who’s been with you for more than 30 years?