What's the deal with medieval music?

Why is it that so much “medieval music” (I’m not sure if it’s actually medieval music or the entertainment industry’s perception of it) all sounds like “Greensleves” re-arranged? Much like Reel Big Fish, whose songs all seem to start out with virtually the same horn line, just altered slightly in the order of the notes and rests?

I was just listening to the song “Maggie” by Rod Stewart (the longer version) which includes this medieval-sounding acoustic guitar solo at the beginning. Sounds like Greensleeves. I can’t even say how many times I’ve heard that musical style, but most of the time I’ve heard it in video games (Diablo, King’s Quest, some “interactive” educational Mac game I had when I was 10, etc) or in scenes in movies trying to depict what life was like during Medieval times. You know what I mean! Right? It all sounds like different arrangements of the notes in Greensleeves.

What is the name for the scale used in this kind of style?

first of all, I am not really Pochacco. I am his wife, and purely by chance I am a music history professor who specializes in medieval music. I’ve also done work on modern interpretations of medieval music – I’ll be teaching a class at UCLA this next quarter called Getting Medieval: medievalism in music and popular culture. So you can understand why my husband read your question and ran out to the living room to get me!

What you’re hearing in Greensleeves and other old tunes, and in newer music based on old tunes, are scales based on patterns that are different from the more modern major and minor ones. We call the older patterns “modes” (actually, we call "major’ and “minor” modes as well). Mode means “manner” and here it refers to the manner of arranging whole tones and half tones into a scale. In a major scale (think of C major – all the white keys on a piano starting on middle C) there are 5 whole tones and two half tones. The half tones (sometimes called half steps) are between E and F and B and C. If you can look at a piano keyboard (or imagine one) you’ll see that there are no black keys between E and F or between B and C. The pattern of intervals for a major scale is TTSTTTS (where T=tone and S=semitone. That’s the British way of saying half-step, and they invented this explanation in English).

[For the pattern of a minor scale, start on A and use all the white keys. The pattern that results is TSTTSTTT. The first two intervals – TT for the major, TS for the minor, give these modes their names. The major mode has a major, or bigger, third while the minor mode has a minor, or smaller, one – three semitones to the major third’s four.]

Major and minor modes begin to be used in music around the 16th century, and they really come into their own in the 17th century, with the invention of tonality. Before then, western music was based on different scales, the so-called Church Modes. They’re called church modes because the first theorists to write about them were church musicians concerned with understanding how gregorian chant worked. There are still only two half steps in the scales, but if you start your scale on different pitches, the half steps will turn up in different places in the scale. There were four places to start, if you imagine the white keys on the piano again: D, E, F and G. There is a LOT more I can tell you about modes but I won’t, for reasons of time. If you want to know more, just ask!

SO tunes written using these older scales will sound like music to us – they’re not from Mars, and they use all the same intervals we use today, just arranged differently. So they sound both familar and wierd at the same time. Let’s take Greensleeves, a 15th century English song. It uses the modal scale based on D (try it out), which 16th century theorists called the Dorian mode (another long story). D E F G A B C D are the pitches, and the pattern of steps is T S T T T S T. This mode begins with a minor third (D-F) and the tune Greensleeves begins with just this interval. Now a modern listener will hear this and on some level identify the sound as minor mode. But then the melody ascends by step and freaks us out: D F G A B A G E C. It starts out minor, but then sounds major. To be minor we should use B-flat instead of B so the semitone is between A and B-flat instead of between B and C. To us moderns this mode sounds like a bizarre combination of major and minor that catches the ear delightfully. It’s archaic but totally comprehensible as well.

So your observation is true: all medieval (and renaissance) music sounds like Greensleeves, if by that you mean that it uses modes that are different from our more modern major and minor.

What Pochacco said - the music you’re hearing is deliberatly playing on the common perception of ‘modes=old’. However, the footnote has to be that plenty of medieval music sounds nothing like Greensleeves, and you’re right that it’s the entertainment industry picking or writing the pieces that they know will sound ‘right’. In many cases, they tend to also draw heavily on folk music idioms, which use similar modes.

Errrr, I mean Prof. Pochacco-Wife :smack:

Way cool=) You like Wolgemut? Wolgemut.net ?

Nice people, put on killer live contests=) I think my favorite is Schauspeluden Michaeleska. . I might have some pictures of them from last Pennsic=)

And of course, there’s a lot of pop, rock, and jazz that use some of these modes (especially Dorian, like the verse part from The Doors’ “Light My Fire.”)

But I do have a question for you concerning the modes…where do all the names for the modes come from: Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, etc… And where in heck does the Locrian mode come from, and is there any point to it? I realize it’s not part of the medieval modes, but where did it come from? Did some theorist just stick it in so each degree of the scale had a mode associated with it?

Didn’t understand a darn thing. Hope I get to work on your PC sometime and describe what I’m doing. :slight_smile:

Back to Greensleeves. John Coltrane and Ralph Vaughn-Williams have arrangements. Do they preserve the scale or change it for an orchestra or the tenor sax?

And while I have you here, how is it that I can listen to Wagner or Beethoven or Tchaikovsky and identify their music without being able to describe it?

Thanks.

This site may be of use. It shows the “Church modes” (they call them “Gregorian Modes”) and also provides listening examples.

<uber jazz geek>

I dunno where it comes from, but it’s lovely for soloing over mi7b5 (minor 7 flat 5) chords (also known as half diminished chords). It’s especially used in jazz in minor keys to solo over the diatonic ii-V change, which is the ii-7b5 to the V7b9.
</ uber jazz geek>

The names are the names of ancient Greek tribes, and they come from the writings of Aristotle. In the 16th century, music theorists read Aristotle (it was the Renaissance after all) and thought when he was discussing how each of the tribes’ music was different from one another, he must have been talking about the church modes they already knew. They were wrong, but after four centuries the names have stuck. Medievalists don’t use the Greek names (we just number the modes, as the medieval theorists did) but everyone else does.

The original church modes were named Dorian (final on D), Phrygian (final on E), and Lydian (final on F); the mode on G was named Mixolydian, because it has the Lydian 5th “mixed” with a Dorian 4th. Also in the 16th century theorists extended modal theory to encompass 12 modes, and other Greek names were adopted for these new modes.

Sorry! This is all a lot clearer if someone can play or sing the scales for you.

Ooh, I don’t know the Coltrane – I’ll look for it. The Vaughan Williams is pretty, isn’t it? Yes, he uses the old scale, otherwise the tune wouldn’t sound right. Vaughan Williams was very interested in old music (the first phase of the 20th century Early music revival was in full swing) and broke away from Germanic music and musical forms by basing his own writing on old music and English folk music (also modal).

You can probably identify the music of different composers because you have a good ear and have noticed all sorts of things about their music: how they use the orchestra, what kinds of tunes they like, what they do with their tunes, etc. Describing music is really hard! Even many musicologists can’t do it well. If you can tell the music of different composers apart, you can definitely learn to describe what you are noticing.

This is the only instance I know of using the Locrian, too. But the other modes (Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian and Aeolian…plus a few others like Hypermixolydian and such) have entire compositions based around them. You can do whole songs in these modes, while the Locrian is pretty much limited to a single chord or chord change. The problem with the Locrian mode is you have both a minor third and a flatted fifth, which limits your harmonization options.

I’m still trying to find out if there is a modal piece mostly in Locrian somewhere out there. I’m sure someone some place must’ve tried, but I’ve yet to hear it.