I agree with this but I don’t see athleticism or physical fitness being correlated to it.
Agreed. (For the exact same reasons, obviously.)
I think the original point was that, in effect, surviving a hostile atmosphere teaches mental toughness. (Military training, organized sports practice, gym class, certain academic teachers, etc…)
Whether this is a defensible position or not is up to debate, but it did appear to work for millions of army recruits over the years. I guess the question would be: Why was this approach employed?
I’m not advocating turning PE into the Navy Seal’s hellweek; I’m just spitballing here. (Honestly, I’m not entirely against the idea either.)
I recognize that there is a world of different between antagonistic instructors and antagonistic peers. Well, I assume there is, but then again I suspect many of these environments encourage antagonism from the peers. (The jelly donut scene in Full Metal Jacket comes to mind.) I have no military or organized team sport experience, so I can’t speak to the differences.
In high school, only non-sports team players were in PE. Football and basketball were big, important things for the town and the school.
I disliked PE. I wasn’t good at it besides for the weight training stuff (I was naturally physically strong), didn’t like team sports, and didn’t know the rules or the positions of even popular sports like basketball. I simply never cared for them. I didn’t have the best hand/eye coordination either, and if you throw something at me, my first instinct is to get out of the way. I could easily walk a 15 minute mile, but running hurt. As a mildly overweight person, my wind wasn’t that great either.
I think that kids (and adults) need to be more physically fit (and here I am sitting and typing on the #2 idiot box behind the TV, the PC and the internet :o ). You’ve got 50 minutes to teach kids that aren’t generally aren’t interested enough (or good enough) to be on a school sports team. Wouldn’t it be better to have them participate in walking and circuit weight training on a pass/fail basis based on participation and effort? If the fat kid can only walk a mile in 30 minutes, then big deal, at least he or she walked. If the weak kid could only use 2.5# dumbells for curls, then big deal, at least he or she lifted. If you look at it, walking and weight training seem to be the most popular forms of fitness activity in the adult community anyway. And mandatory showers, let’s face it, given the time constraints and adolescent nervousness, wouldn’t it be better to for go them?
Bully for me, then. I survived PE, I applied myself and worked (fairly) hard, I did what I needed to do. I’m mentally tough.
Just because one is mentally tough, one is not automatically inclined or obligated to force himself to spend his time on activities he does not enjoy, or which are lower on his priority list than others, or to do every foolish thing he is dared to do.
I totally agree that “mental toughness” does not equal “smarts.” However, I don’t buy that physical weakness correlates to mental weakness. (If there are some studies out there that show this to be true, I may change my mind.) I think most people would agree that there are plenty of people out there who will push themselves mentally but not physically. Surely most of us know someone who will spend hours, days, weeks, or months struggling to figure out a mental puzzle, but won’t push themselves past the first stitch in their side while running.
And that, right there, is your whole problem.
God help those kids who take PE early in the day. They’re going to spend the rest of the day reeking of sweat.
Marc
True, however we require each student to meet certain requirements to pass their course. I spent quite a lot of time applying myself to classes I didn’t enjoy and certainly weren’t high on my priority list. As adults we generally do a lot of things we don’t enjoy and learning to apply yourself to something you don’t enjoy is a valuable lesson to learn during childhood.
Marc
Your name in school was Stinky?
Because they didn’t keep statistics.
No, I’m serious. People assume athletic ability based on images; if you looked unathletic, they assumed you couldn’t hit. It is remarkably difficult for people to get over their paradigms of what athletes should LOOK like, even when objective evidence is staring them right in the face, often to the point that they will behave with almost astonishing irrationality or credit athletic-looking people with being better performers than they actually are. As a perfect example, look at the fawning over the okay-but-not-great but definitely athletic-looking Michael Vick, as opposed to the difficulty shorter quarterbacks like Steve Young and Doug Flutie had convincing people they could play when they first came up.
A few years back the Chicago Cubs had two players, Ryne Sandberg and Mark Grace. Sandberg played second base, a position traditionally manned by light-hitting players. Grace played first base, a position traditionally manned by big sluggers. But in practice they were the opposite sorts of hitters. Grace was a singles hitter who hit few homers; Sandberg had considerable power, and once actually led the league in homers.
Yet for quite some time, the Cubs manager would bat Sandberg AHEAD of Grace - the exact opposite of what you should do, since you want the slugger hitting after the singles hitter. The Cubs coaching staff was simply incapable of breaking past their paradigm of “first basemen hit homers, second basemen hit singles” even though any sports page in America could be consulted to see that Sandberg was a power hitter and Grace was not. It was really a remarkable thing.
If major league coaches can’t get beyond images and paradigms, why would your schoolmates? 
This is exactly why kids shouldn’t be in charge of picking teams, creating and controlling the classroom atmosphere, etc. Teacher need to make sure that every kid gets the same opportunity to find out if he’s good at something (academic teachers do this too, to kids who don’t “look” or “seem” smart… it’s a crime).
Turns out I have a killer jump shot and am pretty good at one on one for my size and lack of experience. I didn’t find this out until college, when a friend of mine who loved b-ball insisted that I play with him, even though I was sure I sucked. I don’t, and now I love to play and can even stand to watch basketball. Too bad I never had a gym teacher who showed me that. My friend went on to become a social studies teacher and coach, thank the gods. We need more people like him in education.
Ah, the joys of mandatory P.E.
I found the experience to be at times mildly enjoyable (you got to muck around with your friends), at times meh (watching the grass grow on the cricket or baseball pitch), and at times moderately bad. I think that P.E. should be mandatory, but I think a lot more care and attention needs to be put into designing the curriculum. If some P.E. teachers would actually engage their logic centres a bit more, it would help, too.
I was on the school swim team in high school. I was and am flat-footed and have kind of big boobs. In Year 11 (16 year olds) our class was made to run a 30 minute track around the neighborhood the school was in. We were to take our pulse-rates before and after. We would get written evaluations from the teacher who drove behind us, observing us. I jog along, I feel OK, but around the 15 minute mark my feet are killing me. I jog-limp along (the teacher leant out of her car and told me to get going again. In my head I told her to fuck off), and finally get back to the gym and take my pulse-rate.
The evaluation? Says I have a good level of fitness but I am a crap runner. Lady, I am on the swim team, flat-footed and bosomy. I could have fricking told you that at the start of the year. :mad:
Anyway, I was swimming four times a week in training season, whilst being advised and trained by the swim coach - I didn’t need the half-assed P.E. classes we were subjected to. From observation, they didn’t do anything to help the fat or unco-ordinated girls in my year.
I think it’s all about the teacher and the experience that they want you to have.
In middle school I had an ex-marine for a teacher who only expected you to do your best. I couldn’t run for beans, but I waddled my way to the bases much to my teammates’ disgruntlement. But when it came to weight training, flexibility and general health (sit ups, push ups, etc.) I exceeded all the girls and most of the guys. I did my best and although I did suck in some areas, he saw that I gave an effort and gave me an A.
He also did not allow any teasing of ANY sort. If you did anything antagonizing to anyone else, you’ll run the entire period and then get detention. And he oversaw detention. No one ever got in trouble because would any 12 year old want to piss off an ex-marine???
High school was different. I took aerobics with a teacher who just did not understand that when a family member is dying, you’d want to be with them. She made me loathe the class because she did not try to empathize with my situation and instead told me that I should be in class.
I wish my ex-marine PE teacher could have beat some sense into my aerobics instructor. That would be incentive enough for me to gimp my way for a mile or two!
(bolding mine)
I’m glad see somebody finally mentioned this. Think P.E. instructors favor the jocks? Think the English teacher with a heart of gold that recognizes the talent in a gang member and brings that talent out is a common thing? My observation is that such an English teacher is a myth.
My experience was that the academic instructors were every bit as bigoted against misfits as the P.E instructors were against non-athletes.
(bolding mine)
On the same note: My buddy Cele always turned in the best stories for English composition classes. But Cele wrote about fights, illegal drag racing, guy/girl scenes, alcohol abuse and other stuff that we were doing.
Teacher’s pet types got A’s on their boring compositions, but if Cele ever got better than a C, I can’t recall it. The teachers would always find some reason to downgrade Cele’s work: “There is no such word as ‘revving!’” or “Your subject matter is trite” or whatever.
Guess what? Given time, an Asian war and college on the G.I. Bill, Cele’s day job turned out to be writing novels and short stories. But no thanks to those English teachers we had to suffer through in high school. Their minds were made up that the Bad Kids were going to end up in prison or digging ditches, and they wouldn’t allow any other scenario to enter their pointed little heads.
JCoM: High school dropout, college graduate, and proud of both accomplishments.
Oh, and just to stick up for coaches, my first two years of high school, we had the nicest, coolest football coach you’d ever hope to meet. Super jock who LOVED sports, but he was so enthusiastic, and just incredibly encouraging. He’d joke and cheer on even the suckiest of sucky athletes. Then he left, and one of the history teachers took over coaching.
So not all the assholes are coaches, necessarily.
I try to be that English teacher. I like to take the rough and tumble types under my wing. My second year teaching, there was a boy who was taking two English classes because he failed his junior year and was not highly regarded by the other faculty members. By the end of the year, he had scored the highest on my final exam. It can happen. There are also gym teachers who will do this for kids, I’m sure.
I am underwhelmed by people who build weasel-retreat routes into their indefensible positions.
Hardly satisfactory, as he was not rightfully sent to juvie for assault.
Actually, God help those kids who have to sit behind the kids who don’t shower.
I had elective PE first period my senior year in high school and everyone took showers. Who wants to reek all day?
No, but if you said that calculus shouldn’t be taught in the way it was taught to you, you probably wouldn’t find many people disagreeing with you. I don’t think PE classes are bad, but I do think the way a lot of them are taught is bad.
Just because it also happens in calculus class, doesn’t make it OK in PE class. I don’t think it’s ever acceptable for teachers or other students to pick on someone, whether in PE class or calculus class.