What's the point of a religion if it constantly updates to adapt to changing society?

[Voyager]

@DSeid

If there is one it may be that religion (and a reaction to it, be it the institutions or the belief systems themselves) MATTER to atheists more often, and therefore impact their lives MORE, has more of a point in their lives, if only in the active negation and rejection.

An apatheist would probably have no problems with having their baby baptized, so long as someone else took care of the details. An atheist might.
It depends on where you live, also. In some places it seems people get asked why they weren’t seen in church, or where they go. That never happens where I live.
But to the outsider they can look the same, which is kind of my point.

@DSeid

My experience is not too different. It is a bit psychologically like how often few are as religiously observant as a convert, I think.

Anyone making the leap into a new faith is going to be gung ho for that faith as a part of self justification. I think a new atheist who starts hitting the message boards in support of atheism is more like that. What I was talking about is the reaction to the fear of hell that appears to be part of many sermons. That’s different.
Being Jewish, and not having hell, I never experienced this problem, but I believe those who say they do. Many say it is the one thing keeping from breaking all ties with religion.

[k9bfriender]

@Miller

According to that poster, it’s at least partially contingent on not having strong religious beliefs

I don’t see how that follows. There is nothing contingent upon not having strong religious beliefs in their wish for you to have a nice day.

Now, that it is directed at those who are often told that they won’t have a nice day because they don’t have strong religious beliefs is true, but it’s not demanding action in order to receive the “blessing”.

@Miller

They bought ad space on a bus to talk about how god doesn’t exist. It’s literally advertising for atheism . This insistence that it’s not proselytizing is ridiculous.

They said it probably doesn’t exist. They aren’t trying to convince anyone, they are just looking to comfort those who have doubt and are afraid of the consequences of those doubts.

If your strong religious beliefs are challenged by this sign, then your religious beliefs weren’t all that strong to begin with.

@Miller

No, but there’s never been a social stigma attached to being heterosexual.

Correct. And just as there have been and still are social stigmas attached to being a homosexual, there are also stigmas attached to being an ashiest.

I can’t agree that trying to remove a negative social stigma is a form of “recruiting”.

@Miller

There is absolutely nobody writing queer-themed content aimed at children who is not cognizant of the importance of representation in culture and media to queer youth, and how a lack of that representation factors into feelings of alienation and otherness. I can pretty much guarantee you that.

There really is a gay agenda? I owe Bill O’Reily an apology then.

@Miller

This should not be a controversial statement, and would not be, if it weren’t in the context of a lukewarm defense of religion as a general concept.

In or out of context, I don’t think that anyone who writes a book that reflects their experiences is out to recruit anyone.

@Miller

Which, I think, pretty well illustrates the type of antagonism towards religion that accompanies any sort of religious discussion on this board.

See, that’s the problem. Any sort of logic or rationality directed towards religion is considered to be antagonistic. Really any sort of rational explanation of the universe that doesn’t involve god gets taken as persecution.

@Miller

And yes yes, there was more antagonism in the Crusades, or what ever other tu quoque you want to bring up.

I have no idea why you chose to bring that up, I had no intention of doing so, but yes, we do live in a time of much greater religious freedom than during the crusades. I think of that as a good thing.

It’s a journey, and we’ve come a long way, but I think that we still have a long way to go.

[Miller]

@Voyager

Which the fundamentalists considered to be so immoral they made it sound like what was being done was recruiting.

Well, they weren’t far wrong, really. Obviously, nobody was going to turn gay because of a children’s book, but an explicit goal of increased representation is to create an environment where more queer people feel safe to come out, effectively recruiting “out queers” from the population of “closeted queers.” Christian fundamentalist ideas about human sexuality are deeply fucked up, but the end result they feared - more openly gay people in society - was also the explicit goal of the push for more representation of queer people in media.

@Voyager

One small difference here. “Jesus Saves” has a very specific context, which, being Jewish, I get. Save from what? Hell. That’s addressed to everyone not Christian.
Now, the atheist message does not say anyone believing in a god will have something bad happen to them. The only difference it could make is wasted Sundays, fear, and perhaps (but rare, I hope) acceptance of bigotry because that is what God wants. That’s where they differ

They both predict a negative outcome for people who don’t embrace the outlook they’re promoting. That they predict different kinds of negative outcomes isn’t significant to the comparison.

[Czarcasm]

@k9bfriender

Now, you do have militant atheists…

For example? I ask this because in the past when that term was used on this message board, the examples given were rather underwhelming.

[k9bfriender]

@Miller

Obviously, nobody was going to turn gay because of a children’s book, but an explicit goal of increased representation is to create an environment where more queer people feel safe to come out, effectively recruiting “out queers” from the population of “closeted queers.”

That’s the same thing that people say about having gay people in their neighborhood. Is a gay couple moving into a straight neighborhood creating and environment where more queer people feel safe to come out?

I’d say yes, but I would also say that that wasn’t their motivation.

The claim was proselytizing, which is trying to convert people to your faith. Your argument is that they are trying to get people to accept those of a different belief system and not see them as monsters.

@Miller

They both predict a negative outcome for people who don’t embrace the outlook they’re promoting. That they predict different kinds of negative outcomes isn’t significant to the comparison.

What’s the negative outcome for those who don’t embrace atheism here? I don’t know that I agree with wasted Sundays, as most people enjoy the socializing at church, even if they don’t strongly believe.

Fear and bigotry are things that you choose, and get reinforced by religion, rather than imposed.

[Voyager]

@Miller

According to that poster, it’s at least partially contingent on not having strong religious beliefs.

Come on. They bought ad space on a bus to talk about how god doesn’t exist. It’s literally advertising for atheism . This insistence that it’s not proselytizing is ridiculous.

No, strong religious beliefs where damnation is important. Not many of us would doubt that UUs could have a nice day believing what they do. Deists, definitely.
Was the “we’re here, we’re queer” message advertising for homosexuality? Or was it just telling the world that they exist. (I wish there was as good a slogan for atheism.)

@Miller

There is absolutely nobody writing queer-themed content aimed at children who is not cognizant of the importance of representation in culture and media to queer youth, and how a lack of that representation factors into feelings of alienation and otherness. I can pretty much guarantee you that.

Exactly. Many atheists I’ve heard from feel quite alienated, in a family of firm believers. They might have grown up hearing that atheists are sinful people who hate god, which is kind of like a gay kid growing up in a homophobic family.

@Miller

Well, they weren’t far wrong, really. Obviously, nobody was going to turn gay because of a children’s book, but an explicit goal of increased representation is to create an environment where more queer people feel safe to come out, effectively recruiting “out queers” from the population of “closeted queers.” Christian fundamentalist ideas about human sexuality are deeply fucked up, but the end result they feared - more openly gay people in society - was also the explicit goal of the push for more representation of queer people in media.

Was the goal having more out people or having gay people not live a lie and be miserable? Yeah, the religious would rather that they marry an opposite sex partner or at least pretend that their partner is a “roommate” - and no PDAs!
Ditto for them rather have the atheist person go to church and pretend, or at least say that they aren’t very religious or don’t really care as opposed to admitting they have no god belief.

@Miller

They both predict a negative outcome for people who don’t embrace the outlook they’re promoting. That they predict different kinds of negative outcomes isn’t significant to the comparison.

No, the bus message just says relax. If fear of hell wasn’t a thing, preachers wouldn’t use it, would they?

[k9bfriender]

As I said, all I’ve really seen are young kids first experiencing religious freedom from their parents imposed beliefs.

My experience with such was almost entirely in person, maybe a little bit of messageboards back in the 90’s.

And I don’t know how you want to define militant, I’m not saying violent or anything like that. But, just as annoying and persistent as some religious folk get about trying to push their beliefs on you.

[k9bfriender]

@Voyager

Was the “we’re here, we’re queer” message advertising for homosexuality? Or was it just telling the world that they exist. (I wish there was as good a slogan for atheism.)

“We’re here, have a nice day!”

[Czarcasm]

@k9bfriender

And I don’t know how you want to define militant, I’m not saying violent or anything like that. But, just as annoying and persistent as some religious folk get about trying to push their beliefs on you.

But religionists who act in that manner are not referred to as “militant” so why apply that label to atheists?

[Voyager]

@k9bfriender

That’s the same thing that people say about having gay people in their neighborhood. Is a gay couple moving into a straight neighborhood creating and environment where more queer people feel safe to come out?

I’d say yes, but I would also say that that wasn’t their motivation.

The claim was proselytizing, which is trying to convert people to your faith. Your argument is that they are trying to get people to accept those of a different belief system and not see them as monsters.

Your last paragraph is perfect. Thanks.
And having people out is more than just getting more out.
We had two gay couples on our street in NJ. both more stable relationships than that of the heterosexual woman who lived next door. My daughter grew up seeing this as normal. Then we moved to the Bay Area where the schools were very good about this.
If my daughter has a smidge of homophobia, I’ve never noticed. Hope for the future! And her story is repeated far and wide. That’s why men on Wheel of Fortune (“America’s Game!”) feel free to talk about their husbands.
I wouldn’t say heterosexuals have benefited more from this movement, but we have benefited a lot.
Now, there is nothing inherent in heterosexuality which makes the other side wrong. Not true for some modern religions. (Not all.) So it is a bit more difficult for them to accept atheism as normal.

[k9bfriender]

@Voyager

Many atheists I’ve heard from feel quite alienated, in a family of firm believers. They might have grown up hearing that atheists are sinful people who hate god, which is kind of like a gay kid growing up in a homophobic family.

My parents basically disowned me because I didn’t believe. I thought I did, as a kid, or at least figured I would eventually. But I didn’t, and when I happened to profess my doubts, they got quite angry.

They pretty much disowned me and really messed up my plans for after high school, and really only came around over a decade later when they realized that I wasn’t missing them nearly as much as they were missing me.

I’m not sure if seeing that sign would have made me feel right with the world, but it probably would have helped a bit.

[Miller]

@k9bfriender

I don’t see how that follows. There is nothing contingent upon not having strong religious beliefs in their wish for you to have a nice day

The message was “There’s probably no God, now stop worrying and enjoy your life.” The clear meaning here is that belief in God causes worry and makes it difficult to enjoy life.

@k9bfriender

They aren’t trying to convince anyone, they are just looking to comfort those who have doubt and are afraid of the consequences of those doubts.

That’s literally religion.

@k9bfriender

There really is a gay agenda?

There’s a gay rights movement. Maybe you’ve heard of it?

@k9bfriender

See, that’s the problem. Any sort of logic or rationality directed towards religion is considered to be antagonistic. Really any sort of rational explanation of the universe that doesn’t involve god gets taken as persecution.

I’m not religious. I don’t feel persecuted by this conversation. My issue is the extent to which logic and rationality vanish when it comes to criticizing religious people. For example, insisting that “There’s probably no God, now stop worrying and enjoy your life,” is just “wishing someone a nice day.”

[Voyager]

@k9bfriender

“We’re here, have a nice day!”

Doesn’t rhyme, damn it!

[k9bfriender]

If you want to argue definition and semantics, that’s fine, I’m not tied to it. But militant Christians are not generally violent, at least not in the US. They are just annoying and persistent.

If you put up a sign saying, “There probably is no god, relax and have a nice day.” That’s not militant. If you put up a sign that says, “There is no god, and you are stupid to believe that there is.” that’s quite a bit more aggressive and assertive.

Militant? Like I said, I’m not tied to that term. What would you rather I use to describe the small handful of annoying and actively proselytizing atheists to differentiate them from the rest of us non-believers?

[Czarcasm]

@Miller

That’s literally religion.

That is literally not.

[Miller]

@k9bfriender

That’s the same thing that people say about having gay people in their neighborhood. Is a gay couple moving into a straight neighborhood creating and environment where more queer people feel safe to come out?

I’d say yes, but I would also say that that wasn’t their motivation.

Buying a house isn’t the same thing as writing a book.

@k9bfriender

The claim was proselytizing, which is trying to convert people to your faith. Your argument is that they are trying to get people to accept those of a different belief system and not see them as monsters.

It’s trying to convert people to your ideas. Gay rights are an idea. They’re a good idea, they’re an idea that I’m very invested it, but they’re also an idea that had to be sold to the public to get accepted. Promoting positive media representations of queer people has always been a major tactic for gay rights organizations.

[quote=“k9bfriender, post:325, topic:938865”]
What’s the negative outcome for those who don’t embrace atheism here? I don’t know that I agree with wasted Sundays, as most people enjoy the socializing at church, even if they don’t strongly believe.[/quote]

“There’s probably no God, now stop worrying” implies that belief in God causes worry. “And go enjoy your life,” further implies that this worry is an impediment to enjoying your life.

Fear and bigotry are things that you choose, and get reinforced by religion, rather than imposed.

Are you suggesting that fear and bigotry only come from religion, and never come from non-religious sources?

[Czarcasm]

@k9bfriender

What would you rather I use to describe the small handful of annoying and actively proselytizing atheists to differentiate them from the rest of us non-believers?

Strident? Whatever you would call a group of Christians who acted the same way?
If you can find a significant number of atheists that act the same way true militant Christians act, then I guess the label would apply. If you need examples of Christian militancy, start here:
Christian Patriot movement - Wikipedia

[k9bfriender]

@Miller

The message was “There’s probably no God, now stop worrying and enjoy your life.” The clear meaning here is that belief in God causes worry and makes it difficult to enjoy life.

As an atheist that grew up religious, I do sometimes still have worries that I’ve chosen poorly, and will suffer consequences for it. I see a sign like that directed at someone like myself, comforting me in my choice, rather than to a religious person.

@Miller

That’s literally religion.

Religion pretty much by definition requires a belief in the supernatural. Is me telling a client that they made the right choice in putting down their dog when its quality of life was diminishing in order to comfort them in their difficult decision also religion?

@Miller

There’s a gay rights movement. Maybe you’ve heard of it?

But is it trying to get gay people to be accepted, or is it trying to turn people gay?

I’ll agree on the first, so long as you agree that trying to make atheists accepted isn’t trying to make people atheist.

I’ll disagree on the second, and I also disagree that atheists have that agenda either.

@Miller

I’m not religious. I don’t feel persecuted by this conversation.

But you do seem to be taking offense on their behalf. There’s nothing wrong with that if they are being persecuted. If someone is not allowed to worship the way that they feel best, as long as it doesn’t harm others, then I will take offense on their behalf.

@Miller

My issue is the extent to which logic and rationality vanish when it comes to criticizing religious people.

@Miller

My issue is the extent to which logic and rationality vanish when it comes to criticizing religious people.

I disagree that this happens. I mean, no one is perfectly logical or rational, so it’s always possible to make errors in both and either, but to claim that they vanish is not remotley true.

@Miller

For example, insisting that “There’s probably no God, now stop worrying and enjoy your life,” is just “wishing someone a nice day.”

You got me there. For some reason I remembered the quote as “There’s probably no God, now stop worrying and have a nice day.”

So, you are right, it’s not wishing someone a nice day, it’s wishing them a nice life.

[k9bfriender]

@Miller

Buying a house isn’t the same thing as writing a book.

Right, writing a book is one way communication. Buying a house means that you actually have to live with your neighbors.

A homophobic parent can ban that book from their house. But the law says they can’t ban a homosexual couple from living next door.

Having homosexual neighbors is probably going to normalize homosexuality far more than a book ever can.

@Miller

It’s trying to convert people to your ideas . Gay rights are an idea. They’re a good idea, they’re an idea that I’m very invested it, but they’re also an idea that had to be sold to the public to get accepted.

So, you would actually describe gay rights advocacy as proselytizing? I think that that weakens the definition considerably, but if you want to use that definition for any thing that gay rights activists do, then sure, you can apply that same use of the word to what religious rights activists do, including the atheists.

@Miller

“There’s probably no God, now stop worrying” implies that belief in God causes worry.

If you pay attention to your bible, then you would know that it tells you to worry. It tells you to fear him, it tells you to worry about your soul, it really is quite the guilt trip. A sign is not implying this, it is acknowledging it.

@Miller

“And go enjoy your life,” further implies that this worry is an impediment to enjoying your life.

Worry does cause people to have less enjoyment in their life. An atheist worries they’ve made the wrong choice, an convert from one religion to another worries they made the wrong choice, someone who is aware of other religions but does not convert worries they made the wrong choice, a person who absolutely believes that they made the right choice still worries that they are not living up to the standards they are supposed to follow.

@Miller

Are you suggesting that fear and bigotry only come from religion, and never come from non-religious sources?

No, but I am saying that many bigots justify and reinforce their fears through religion.

[panache45]

@k9bfriender

“We’re here, have a nice day!”

“We’re here, but God’s not!”