What's the point of prayer?

Great Debates
141

[QUOTE=kanicbird]
Sorry too late, God has already defined it as well as ‘objective’.

[/quote]
And I reject God’s definition, assuming he existed to make any such definition. And as pointed out it can’t be arbitrary and objective at the same time.

[QUOTE=kanicbird]
I do see a consistency between the OT and NT, God has been consistent even if man and time has not.
[/quote]
Considering that the OT God is a sadistic, genocidal monster, one of the most evil fictional beings ever created, that is NOT an argument for following the New Testament.

[QUOTE=kanicbird]
And just to mention that I think you will come to Jesus and accept Him, I have to admit it’s not enough that I would consider it prophecy, but I beleive it to be true.
[/quote]
If I ever did it would be to stick a knife in his fictional guts.

[QUOTE=kanicbird]
Man’s word against God’s, fat chance is putting it lightly.
[/quote]
Yes; given God’s history his chance of equalling humanity on a moral level is slim.

[QUOTE=kanicbird]
If it were just that easy, unfortunately it’s not and we have to decide if we want Him as our God.
[/quote]
No, I don’t want him as by God. I don’t want ANY god, but if I had to choose the Christian God would be far, far down the list. He makes Zeus look like a paragon.

[QUOTE=kanicbird]
It’s not parole but undeserved favor, which can righteously be withdrawn at any time and it is still a net benefit to the recipient for the time he has it.
[/quote]
Undeserved by whose standard ? I am morally vastly superior to God; he has no moral standing to judge me. The same can be said of most people.

[QUOTE=kanicbird]
Yes there is a final judgment, and we are blessed to have God as the judge.
[/QUOTE]
It’s hardly a blessing to be judged by a lunatic tyrant.

142

[QUOTE=kanicbird]
I do see a consistency between the OT and NT, God has been consistent even if man and time has not.
[/QUOTE]
Could you describe what you mean by this in more detail?

143

[QUOTE=kanicbird]
Sorry too late, God has already defined it as well as ‘objective’.

.

I do see a consistency between the OT and NT, God has been consistent even if man and time has not.

And just to mention that I think you will come to Jesus and accept Him, I have to admit it’s not enough that I would consider it prophecy, but I beleive it to be true.

Man’s word against God’s, fat chance is putting it lightly.

This is apparently your God given right, use it wisely.
If it were just that easy, unfortunately it’s not and we have to decide if we want Him as our God.

The difference is that in your case God would force you to accept Him, in my example God just lets you know the facts and lets you decide - yea your right there is absolutely no difference (where is the rolleyes smily)

Correct
It’s not parole but undeserved favor, which can righteously be withdrawn at any time and it is still a net benefit to the recipient for the time he has it.

Yes there is a final judgment, and we are blessed to have God as the judge.
[/QUOTE]

If there is going to be a final Judgment and God is all knowing why is that even necessary,doesn’t God know who will accept Him and who will not? It would seem people are already judged,even before they were born. Hitler, Osama, and other despots were allowed to be born and all the evil they had done could have been avoided,so I cannot understand a loving father permitting such evil things.

Monavis

144

[QUOTE=Strinka]
Could you describe what you mean by this in more detail?
[/QUOTE]

Man was really in opposition of God as they acquired the knowledge of good and evil, as they became like god (*stated by Satan - Gen 3:5). As such man was really no better off as Satan and his fallen angels - except that God did (and does)love us very much.

God, out of his love for us, started rebuilding His kingdom here by selecting a small group of people, biblically the smallest (Deuteronomy 7:7). At this time you have a few people among many peoples in opposition to God. At this time killing people in opposition to God seems to be what would happen to a enemy of God anyway, seperation of body and spirit and that person is eternally separated from God and they are entitled to make their own kingdom (though they are not physically able to).

When Jesus came the rules changed as Jesus opened up salvation to all people, the battle that was against (evil) spirit and flesh became one just against (evil) spirits (Eph 6:12). People are no longer to be considered the enemy, but a lost person who God wants to bring into His kingdom.

This split of time is also symbolized with the calendar BC and AD, where time runs backwards numerally in BC (yes you can call it CE and BCE, but it’s still BC and AD, still based on Christ). I personally see the Jesus was born in 4 BC discrepancy (instead of 0 or 1 AD) as proof of man’s imperfectness.

I also think Jesus will once again split time during His second coming when the opportunity to chose God is no longer a option, all choices will be made and judgment will fall on the people of the world.

(Have to get to the rest later)

145

[QUOTE=kanicbird]
God, out of his love for us, started rebuilding His kingdom here by selecting a small group of people, biblically the smallest (Deuteronomy 7:7). At this time you have a few people among many peoples in opposition to God. At this time killing people in opposition to God seems to be what would happen to a enemy of God anyway, seperation of body and spirit and that person is eternally separated from God and they are entitled to make their own kingdom (though they are not physically able to).
[/quote]
Genocide as love ? And why is opposition to God wrong ? Why is following your monster-god right ?

146

[QUOTE=kanicbird]
Man was really in opposition of God as they acquired the knowledge of good and evil, as they became like god (*stated by Satan - Gen 3:5). As such man was really no better off as Satan and his fallen angels - except that God did (and does)love us very much.

God, out of his love for us, started rebuilding His kingdom here by selecting a small group of people, biblically the smallest (Deuteronomy 7:7). At this time you have a few people among many peoples in opposition to God. At this time killing people in opposition to God seems to be what would happen to a enemy of God anyway, seperation of body and spirit and that person is eternally separated from God and they are entitled to make their own kingdom (though they are not physically able to).

When Jesus came the rules changed as Jesus opened up salvation to all people, the battle that was against (evil) spirit and flesh became one just against (evil) spirits (Eph 6:12). People are no longer to be considered the enemy, but a lost person who God wants to bring into His kingdom.

This split of time is also symbolized with the calendar BC and AD, where time runs backwards numerally in BC (yes you can call it CE and BCE, but it’s still BC and AD, still based on Christ). I personally see the Jesus was born in 4 BC discrepancy (instead of 0 or 1 AD) as proof of man’s imperfectness.

I also think Jesus will once again split time during His second coming when the opportunity to chose God is no longer a option, all choices will be made and judgment will fall on the people of the world.

(Have to get to the rest later)
[/QUOTE]

I believe you have as a source the Bible, and are reading it as literal truth. But the Bible was written by man not God. It was inspired by God, true, but then so are my writings and the writings of all. We would not exist save by the grace of God who is not the destroyer, but the creator. God is perfect and created us in his image of perfection. We will remain as He created us, perfect in every way. How could it be any different. Can you pour sludge from a bottle of fine wine. No, and perfection can not create imperfection. However it is true that we have forgotten who and what we are, that we make many mistakes, some to them terrible, but it is only because we fear God instead of love Him. His love has never waivered for us. His love is unconditional. He would never harm us in any way, no loving father would ever harm his children. He wants us to love one another, and sent Jesus to teach us the way, the truth, and the light of love God holds for us all everyone. We are learning here who we are, and what our purpose is in the greater scheme of the universe. We will follow many false prophets, go down many dead ends, but in the end we will succeed, each and everyone of us. No one loses, no one is harmed. God simply loves us too much to allow that. Our physical bodies will hurt, grieve, feel lost and lonely, because we make mistakes, but the real us will never be anything but love held safe and secure in the greatest love of all, God.

147

[QUOTE=lekatt]
I believe you have as a source the Bible, and are reading it as literal truth.
[/QUOTE]

I do believe the words of the Bible are much more true then we can realize and understand. I can accept that man may have added some imperfections along the way (much like having Jesus born in 4 BC), or I can accept that God has preserved His word, but even in the first case God is wise enough for us to realize what imperfections we would introduce and allow for that.

The proof to me of the Word in the OT is that Jesus knew it and used it, further proof of the Word is that we as Christians can also use the Word in spiritual warfare.

You might have just came up with the reason that Hell is eternal. God does allow death, but that is not the end, I can’t think of any being that God has totally destroyed, even the Nelphlim arguably still exist as disembodied spirits (one possible explanation of what earthbound demons are).

148

[QUOTE=kanicbird]
I do believe the words of the Bible are much more true then we can realize and understand. I can accept that man may have added some imperfections along the way (much like having Jesus born in 4 BC), or I can accept that God has preserved His word, but even in the first case God is wise enough for us to realize what imperfections we would introduce and allow for that.

The proof to me of the Word in the OT is that Jesus knew it and used it, further proof of the Word is that we as Christians can also use the Word in spiritual warfare.

You might have just came up with the reason that Hell is eternal. God does allow death, but that is not the end, I can’t think of any being that God has totally destroyed, even the Nelphlim arguably still exist as disembodied spirits (one possible explanation of what earthbound demons are).
[/QUOTE]

Would a loving father have need for a hell to punish his children, of course not. Why would He punish that which He loves unconditionally. The concepts of hell and heaven are creations of man not God. Why would one need to threaten another except in mistake, do they not understand God’s love for them. Is it for control that one threatens another, do they not know God’s love frees everyone.
Jesus did not come to establish a religion. He came to teach the way of love. Would a follower of Jesus disobey His teachings and not show love to his fellowman. Jesus said to take the beam from thine own eye before attempting to remove the mote from thy brothers. He taught to love one another, to love your enemies, to love those that dispitefully use you. He said to forgive over and over those who offended you and not judge them, lest ye be judged. Jesus said to go the second mile and feed the hungry, heal the sick, and visit those in prison. “As ye have done this unto them, so ye have done it unto me.” Now, what part of that don’t you understand? Maybe I can help?

149

I’ve found the daily calendar readings at www.christianagnostic.com to make more sense than a lot of what comes from the pulpits.

150

[QUOTE=lekatt]
. Would a follower of Jesus disobey His teachings and not show love to his fellowman. Jesus said to take the beam from thine own eye before attempting to remove the mote from thy brothers. He taught to love one another, to love your enemies, to love those that dispitefully use you.
[/QUOTE]

As his follower, I have to take into account the times he cast demons out of people. Demons are the devils workers. Now I don’t have good access to a Bible right this second, but I seem to remember about Jesus being in the wilderness for 40 days and satan tempting Him there. I just can’t discount there being no hell if there is satan. Perhaps you have some insight you would share with me.

151

[QUOTE=lekatt]
We would not exist save by the grace of God who is not the destroyer, but the creator. God is perfect and created us in his image of perfection. We will remain as He created us, perfect in every way. How could it be any different.
[/quote]
How about, 'There is no God, we evolved and were not cretaed, and are nowhere near perfect, whatever that is" ? Calling a being ‘perfect’ doesn’t even make sense.

[QUOTE=lekatt]
He wants us to love one another, and sent Jesus to teach us the way, the truth, and the light of love God holds for us all everyone.
[/quote]
Too bad he spread death and destruction and tyranny instead. That’s an argument against your benevolent God; a being like that would have known better than to inflict Christianity and it’s legion of evils on the world. And there’s no virtue in indiscriminate love.

152

[QUOTE=lekatt]
Would a loving father have need for a hell to punish his children, of course not.
[/QUOTE]

You forgot that God is the righteous judge too, it is part of His ‘job’ so to speak.

Perhaps you can help me out with this verses, If we accept the word of Jesus as written in scriptures I see no reason to ignore these (as you seem to be taking Jesus’ loving verses as literal, at least for this discussion.) - all are quotes of Jesus except the one Revelation verse where this is what Jesus showed St. John.

[QUOTE=Matthew 25:41 NIV]

"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Luke 16:23 NASB]
In hell,[a] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE= MARK 9: NASB]
43"(AF)If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into (AG)hell, into the (AH)unquenchable fire,

44[[c]where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.]
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=John 16:11 NIV]

and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE= Revelation 20:10]

And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Mark 14:21 NIV]
The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born."
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE= Mathew 12:32 NIV]
Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
[/QUOTE]

And perhaps the greatest degree of torment the outer darkness:

[QUOTE=Mathew 8:12 YLT]
but the sons of the reign shall be cast forth to the outer darkness – there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of the teeth.’
[/QUOTE]

153

[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
Genocide as love ? And why is opposition to God wrong ? Why is following your monster-god right ?
[/QUOTE]

Can it be considered Genocide of God will raise them from the dead?

[QUOTE=Monavis]
If there is going to be a final Judgment and God is all knowing why is that even necessary,doesn’t God know who will accept Him and who will not? It would seem people are already judged,even before they were born. Hitler, Osama, and other despots were allowed to be born and all the evil they had done could have been avoided,so I cannot understand a loving father permitting such evil things.
[/QUOTE]

You are looking too close at the short time we have on earth and not enough at the eternal picture. As for why judgment is needed, I’m not sure except it seems like the right thing to do, at the least you get a trial.

[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
If I ever did it would be to stick a knife in his fictional guts.
[/QUOTE]

We are all directly responsible for the death of Jesus, what a honor it must have been to thrust the spear (of destiny) into the side of Jesus on the cross and be covered with the blood of the lamb.

[QUOTE=begbert]
Fine. I decide he’s not my God and that he has no authority over me. I’ll just hang out in heaven, then, and if God doesn’t like me being around him he can just leave. (There should be a vacancy in Hell, since I’ll have refused his claim that I have a place there.)
[/QUOTE]

As I understand it you can make that challenge, you will lose, and once you realize what you are thinking you will most likely forget about that plan, as you will know as soon as you start you lost already.

154

[QUOTE=kanicbird]
Can it be considered Genocide of God will raise them from the dead?
[/QUOTE]
Sure it can! If I deck you, I still decked you even if you recover later.

Der Trihs is a little gung-ho about all this, but objectively speaking, there’s more to how you treat someone than the last thing you do to them. Especially since your position seems to be that all these people were doomed from birth to damnation anyway, for seemingly no good cause. God creates them, kills them brutally, damns them horrifically, and then abandons them eternally. It may be hard to get an objective view of this, but can you see how this sort of behavior might seem distateful to some people? It’s like raising kittens just so that you can torture them to death.

[QUOTE=kanicbird]
You are looking too close at the short time we have on earth and not enough at the eternal picture. As for why judgment is needed, I’m not sure except it seems like the right thing to do, at the least you get a trial.
[/QUOTE]
There are other terms for trials where the result is known in advance. But I think the actual question was a combination of the free will vs. foreknowledge debate combined with the problem of evil on earth, neither of which is meaninfully addressed by a vague reference to the afterlife.

[QUOTE=kanicbird]
We are all directly responsible for the death of Jesus, what a honor it must have been to thrust the spear (of destiny) into the side of Jesus on the cross and be covered with the blood of the lamb.
[/QUOTE]
Claiming that we are all “directly responsible” for the death of Jesus reads to me as 1) totally false by any interpretation of the bible, and 2) a cheap attempt to make people feel unjustified guilt and indebtedness. The simple fact is, if I were to point a gun at my head and said to you “I’m going to kill myself because you did X”, and then I blew myself away, that does not mean that my death is your fault, even if you actually did X. That’s simply not how causation works. (It is how guilt trips work, though.)

And I admit being creeped out by your apparent envy of the chance to murder your savior, just for the chance to have his innards sprayed on you. It takes the notion of collecting an admired person’s scraps of clothing and personal possessions to a whole 'nother level, to which my only response can be: YMMV.

[QUOTE=kanicbird]
As I understand it you can make that challenge, you will lose, and once you realize what you are thinking you will most likely forget about that plan, as you will know as soon as you start you lost already.
[/QUOTE]
Again, I already said pretty explicitly that such a challenge would be ineffective; it’s pretty clear from a biblical standpoint that God would simply kick my ass to Hell without a second thought, utterly ignoring my rejection of his authority except as a a quick justification for damning me. The level of ‘choice’ here is on a par with being asked something at gunpoint.

155

To answer the OP directly, for I have not bothered reading this thread – or perhaps I’ve read it once too many in its different manifestations.

The placebo effect, which of course, has nothing to do with Divinity.

Logic involved? Zip. Zero.

156

[QUOTE=begbert2]
And I admit being creeped out by your apparent envy of the chance to murder your savior,
[/QUOTE]
The spear was thrust into the body of Jesus after He died.

157

[QUOTE=lekatt]
I believe you have as a source the Bible, and are reading it as literal truth. But the Bible was written by man not God. It was inspired by God, true, but then so are my writings and the writings of all. We would not exist save by the grace of God who is not the destroyer, but the creator. God is perfect and created us in his image of perfection. We will remain as He created us, perfect in every way. How could it be any different. Can you pour sludge from a bottle of fine wine. No, and perfection can not create imperfection. However it is true that we have forgotten who and what we are, that we make many mistakes, some to them terrible, but it is only because we fear God instead of love Him. His love has never waivered for us. His love is unconditional. He would never harm us in any way, no loving father would ever harm his children. He wants us to love one another, and sent Jesus to teach us the way, the truth, and the light of love God holds for us all everyone. We are learning here who we are, and what our purpose is in the greater scheme of the universe. We will follow many false prophets, go down many dead ends, but in the end we will succeed, each and everyone of us. No one loses, no one is harmed. God simply loves us too much to allow that. Our physical bodies will hurt, grieve, feel lost and lonely, because we make mistakes, but the real us will never be anything but love held safe and secure in the greatest love of all, God.
[/QUOTE]

That God inspired the Bible is what men claim not God. So if you believe it is inspired your faith is in the writer not God.

Monavis

158

[QUOTE=kanicbird]
Can it be considered Genocide of God will raise them from the dead?

You are looking too close at the short time we have on earth and not enough at the eternal picture. As for why judgment is needed, I’m not sure except it seems like the right thing to do, at the least you get a trial.

We are all directly responsible for the death of Jesus, what a honor it must have been to thrust the spear (of destiny) into the side of Jesus on the cross and be covered with the blood of the lamb.

As I understand it you can make that challenge, you will lose, and once you realize what you are thinking you will most likely forget about that plan, as you will know as soon as you start you lost already.
[/QUOTE]

A trial should be totally unnecessary to a Being that knows (and knew) what the final verdict would be. If I knew ahead of time my child would turn to evil I would make sure I never concieved it. I sure wouldn’t wait until it had harmed himself, herself, or others.

Humans try others because they do not know all the facts,but since God knows and knew it is different. Of course if God is not all knowing then that may apply.

Monavis

159

[QUOTE=begbert2]
There are other terms for trials where the result is known in advance.
[/QUOTE]

Perhaps trail is the wrong word, more of a right to face your accuser, and to hear the charges against you, the evidence will be apparently from your own lips as it seems that God is above the US Constitutional right against self incrimination.

OK I went a bit far on that, but if we are to accept the gift of eternal life that God has promised us we needed Jesus to die, so those who accept the gift, by that choice of acceptance, required Jesus to die.

That gift includes we are forgiven so their is no guilt or indebtedness - that is part of the deal.

160

[QUOTE=monavis]
A trial should be totally unnecessary to a Being that knows (and knew) what the final verdict would be…

Humans try others because they do not know all the facts,but since God knows and knew it is different. Of course if God is not all knowing then that may apply.

Monavis
[/QUOTE]

Yes read my post 159 (directly above this one) I addresses this and made a modification.