It does sound that way to me too. Even when you can admit that it’s at least partly your fault, having that much money taken away from you when you’re not rich already has got to hurt.
As an aside, I’ve actually been looking at holidays to Greece just because I want to go there, and they’ve actually gone up a lot in price compared to a year or two ago.
A fair arguement, though not oen to dive into at the moment.
Things are bad in Greece now, but if they left the Euro and brought back the drachma, things would probably become catastrophic. That’s the problem.
I mean, nobody would have confidence in the drachma, so it would rapidly become worthless – anybody who could would exchange them for Euros just as fast as they possibly could, knocking down their value even further. Meanwhile, those poor people who were stuck with drachmas without being able to exchange them, for whatever reason, would find that they were useless to buy anything from outside Greece, so imports – necessary for a decent life – would be prohibitively expensive.
With the help of the banks. I believe this was the former government, by the way. No matter - if some of the people who did this got thrown into jail it might defuse the situation somewhat. Sure voters want the moon; they always do. That is no excuse for a politician giving it to them.
As for taxes, anyone complaining about the big, bad IRS should consider that if we didn’t have a big bad IRS we might end up like Greece. If your neighbor cheats on taxes and gets away with it, you’d be a fool not to cheat also.
I think most of the (crazy) people who don’t want an IRS also don’t want all the taxes and services, so it’s sort of a moot point. 
[QUOTE=Voyager]
With the help of the banks. I believe this was the former government, by the way. No matter - if some of the people who did this got thrown into jail it might defuse the situation somewhat. Sure voters want the moon; they always do. That is no excuse for a politician giving it to them.
[/QUOTE]
The trouble with this is, who would you throw in jail? Some scape-bromos types to appease the mob? Most of the stuff Greece is paying for is due to what the people wanted, which is all those nice social programs, but without having to pay for them. ‘Free’ health care and such. So, who should or would go to jail or get lined up to pose for gunfire?
-XT
I am always amazed by people who are happy to have huge amounts of money given to them but who scream about that money being “taken away” when it comes time to repay. There is a stunning intellectual and moral disconnect involved.
You mean people like these guys?
We will find you. We will hunt you down.
Lot of folks are claiming a quite different scenario, that the problem derives from the professional and investor classes taking advantage of tax schemes that sometimes border on fraud, sometimes roll right over it. The working classes who get hourly paychecks have no such options. The government already knows how much money they made even before they know themselves.
Unlike yourself, I am not an expert on Greece’s problems, but a cursory reading brings up the suggestion that a good portion of their problem is tax avoidance, problems created, you might say, by the privileged few, the one percent. Say, there may be the germ of a slogan there!
obviously you’re not a Greek tax collector.
Heard a faintly terrifying documentary on the radio last night that covered, in part, the practical mechanism for Greece withdrawing from the euro. The point they were making was that there is no pull-out mechanism, no procedure, because the people who invented this thing didn’t ever consider it would happen.
From the moment the monetary changeover would be mentioned by the Greek parliament, there would likely be a full-scale run on every Greek bank as people with euros in them would want to get hold of them and transfer them to non-Greek banks to preserve them as euros before conversion to a currency that would inevitably drop through the floor - something that was relatvely difficult to do from within Argentina, but trivially easy within the EU.
And that with this in mind the run has actually already started, but only as a trickle from amongst the financially savvy.
Thus any announcement that there would be a pull-out would necessarily have to be made simultaneously with an enforced suspension of all the banks. Result: more riots.
It takes the biggest private mint in the world - which is in the UK - four months to print up new currency (a situation that was tested with the new Iraq currency). So such a thing would have to be done in private four months before any decision was announced. It may already be being done, either to herald an announcement, or as contingency.
An alternative would be to mark ‘Greek’ euro bills, but they tried using stickers during the Velvet Revolution to distinguish the same currency between the Czech Republic and Slovakia, and the value of Slovak notes fell immediately, and enterprising Slovaks found ways to get rid of the stickers to turn them back into higher value Czech notes. (I was thinking that maybe a very complex hole punch could do the same thing.)
Even after the dust settled - if it ever did - the private sector would also be up shit creek because of the massive intertwining of business within the EU economic zone. What would happen to the debts owed in euros to non-Greek companies? The resulting litigation could go on for decades.
So were Greece to pull out of the euro, the economy would collapse anyway, the public sector paying money that would be worth jack shit, the private sector embroiled in unpayable debts. Things would possibly be worse than under current austerity rules, but it doesn’t look like Greece can come up with its first bail-out repayment, even with the legislation passed yesterday.
IMO we’re looking at mass disorder, hyperinflation, martial law. The Zimbabwe of Europe. Scary shit.
And then a possible domino effect beginning with Portugal and ending who knows where?
It also mentioned in passing that 48% of “the young” however you define that are unemployed, so there’s your pool of rioters right there, whatever their reasons, justifiable or not.
[QUOTE=elucidator]
Lot of folks are claiming a quite different scenario, that the problem derives from the professional and investor classes taking advantage of tax schemes that sometimes border on fraud, sometimes roll right over it. The working classes who get hourly paychecks have no such options. The government already knows how much money they made even before they know themselves.
[/QUOTE]
Lots of people claim a lot of things. Reality and perception often diverge.
A cursory reading of Greece’s problems suggests that it stems from the 1% avoiding taxes, ehe? Yeah, that does sound like exactly the same cursory reading our own Occupy folks seem to have done as well, so looks like my perception there is pretty close to reality, if you are any yardstick to measure by.
-XT
Well, what’s left to fight over? Istanbul/Constantinople? Cyprus?
I’m not informed about the events in Greece to know how much was ‘given’ to the individuals or not. But yes, when people have become accustomed to living on a certain wage that wasn’t big to begin with, then it gets cut a lot, then cut even more - and we’re not talking small amounts - then it’s not surprising that they will revolt.
The everyday man in the street has just been going out to work day in, day out, not knowing that there are EU loans supporting him somehow in the background because he never actually sees them impact upon him personally, and now he has much less money despite already taking a huge pay-cut.
I’m not talking about whether it’s right or wrong or whether it’s their fault, just that it’s totally understandable.
Some of the police’s actions have been questionable too; the riots last summer were sparked by the police shooting a teenager. My own experiences of the Greek police as a female teenage tourist were fucking horrendous, and I wasn’t a criminal.
I know the Greek police are as much part of Greece as the civilians, but they’re also part of the state that’s being fought against - however haphazardly.
I’m sorry, did I overlook the massive amount of support and citation you offered for your opinion? Point it out, I’ll have a look.
And if you want to call me an opinion slut, have at it, no hurt, no foul, but don’t try to pretend you’re any better than the rest of us girls out here on the street.
Loans aren’t charity, they are bets. The German and French banks loaning far more to Greece than they ever possibly could pay back is a mockery of due diligence, possible default of a specific nation is/must be a part of national loan OR all nations accept responsibility to finance it, that this isn’t happening is hardly the fault of the poor Greek bastards suffering incredibly fair and even-handed ‘austerity’ now.
[QUOTE=elucidator]
I’m sorry, did I overlook the massive amount of support and citation you offered for your opinion? Point it out, I’ll have a look.
[/QUOTE]
My ‘cite’ (presumably for the temerity of pointing out that the Greek situation is complex and multifaceted…or something) is sitting right next to yours (which would entail some sort of proof, beyond your feeling, that the Greek mess is wholly, mostly or somethingy the fault of the top 1%) 'luci.
Ah, I see your issue here. You presume that I DO think that I’m better, stronger, faster, able to leap tall building more effectively and have a larger cock than the rest of, um, you girls. That’s a serious misread of where I’m coming from.
-XT
It just that I have a hard time believing that’s really your communion dress. I mean, I can see the Goodwill tag…
Firstly, blame is not something that need lie all upon one head. Just because the banks may have done something blameworthy in loaning money to a nation that couldn’t pay it back doesn’t mean that the nation isn’t blameworthy for borrowing money it couldn’t pay back.
Secondly, from what I’ve read, Greece lied through its teeth to hide its true financial situation. OK so you might say “well, the banks should have seen through that” but again, that doesn’t mean it was OK for Greece to lie, or that they aren’t very significantly to blame for their own misfortune.
[QUOTE=elucidator]
It just that I have a hard time believing that’s really your communion dress. I mean, I can see the Goodwill tag…
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Well, it’s white isn’t it? And you see the veil, don’t you? Plus I have some of these dried wafer thingies in my pocket…
-XT