In This thread SlackerInc is wondering why people in Scandinavia drink so much coffee.
polar bear posted “Because alcohol is so expensive.” to which Maastricht replied “That might explain part of it in Scandinavia, where alcohol use is indeed expensive and discouraged.”
I’m confused by this.
I’ve been to Europe many times. I’m a Wisconsin boy and even I was in awe of the drinking in Europe, especially in Germany, Italy, Ireland, and Finland (which is in Scandinavia, right?).
So what’s the dope on these statements regarding alcohol in Scandinavia? I recall it being cheap and available everywhere just like anywhere else in Europe.
Europe is many different countries and they are all different, with different cultures and different laws. Some make alcohol more freely available than it is in America, some less. I do not know if it is still the case (though I have no reason to think it is not) but when I was in Sweden, some decades ago, they had very restrictive drinking laws. IIRC, there were very few legally designated places where one could buy alcohol at all in a town, and they had very restricted hours. I think it was heavily taxed, too.
Inevitably, this had the unintended consequence that often, when someone did manage to get their hands on some booze, they would tend to drink to considerable excess. Once, at about midday, my family and I ran into a guy (in a little sort of gazebo in a park, IIRC) who was totally wasted, slurring his words and hardly able to stand, with a mostly drunk full-sized bottle of some sort of spirits in his hand. It turned out he was a teacher from the nearby high school, on his lunch hour.
Never been to Scandinavia, but I do remember the poster Flodnak talking here about the absolutely crazy alcohol taxes in Norway. Here’s a link that should bear that out. FTL:
The cute thing is that the insanely high taxes seem to actually have curtailed consumption, without too much of a black market stepping to fill the void.
Countries with very restrictive drinking laws are often countries that feel they *need *them, thanks to a heavy drinking culture. For instance, the only reason the drinking age in the U.S. is 21 is the teenage binge-drinking culture; in countries where that kind of behavior isn’t common, the drinking age is often 18.
Yeah, I know. I’ve been there several times, and several times in each country.
I just don’t recall liquor being that hard to get in Scandinavia, especially in Finland.
I don’t recall it being that expensive, either.
Keep in mind the last time I was in Finland was in the late 80’s, but I do recall there being a lot of bars (I don’t remember if we bought any booze retail) and the Finns I was with drank like they invented it. The person I was traveling with was Irish (born in Ireland but an American citizen) and even he was impressed. It was a total blast, I tell you. for the Finnish I have much affection.
And I don’t recall drinking being "discouraged’, either.
The Nordic countries (Denmark excluded) basically invented the idea of a total government liquor monopoly. This was copied in turn by the Canadian provinces, and then various US states after Prohibition was repealed.
And in Spain, the arrival of binge-drinking tourism gave rise to a binge-drinking culture and to drinking-age laws.
Something that makes it hard to compare anecdata about different countries’ alcohol consumption is differences on how and when it is consumed. I’ve had foreign coworkers who were scandalized when they saw someone ask for a glass of white wine before lunch - only, it was all the alcohol that person would have all day. The other person had beer with lunch: call it six, call it half a dozen, it comes down to the same…
You’re putting the cart before the horse here. The Nordic countries have had a tradition of binge drinking since the Viking ages¹, if not before. And at least a long time before alcohol taxes were invented. Reading statistics about alcohol consumption in e.g. Norway in the 19th century (estimated to ~13L of pure alcohol per year as hard liquor, not counting beer or other softer alcoholic drinks), it’s hard to believe that people were ever sober. It was the widespread heavy drinking that prompted the growth of the temperance movement and later the teetotalism movement during the 1800s. The state alcohol monopolies for liquor and wine were established after the prohibition during the 20s showed to be ineffectual, in an attempt to limit drinking by limiting availability.
So, the heavy taxing and somewhat limited availability of alcohol in the Nordic countries are a consequence of our binge drinking culture, not the other way around. Interestingly, now that the Nordic countries are providing easier access to alcohol and lowered taxes due to the EU situation, we see an increase in consumption. And contrary to some peoples’ belief, we’re not chaning to a more continental drinking pattern. We’re adopting the continental drinking pattern in addition to upholding our centuries-old tradition of binge drinking.
Currently, you can buy beer in any Norwegian grocery store before 8pm on weekdays (6pm on Saturdays, not at all on Sundays or public holidays), and there’s a state-run liquor store in almost every town. And pubs are usually open until about 2am. I admit it’s restricted compared to many other countries, but it’s not overtly restricted to me. OTOH, I’ve been living here all my life, and I’m used to it.
The upside of the wine monopoly stores compared to local merchants is that the assortment of decent wine is pretty good, even in small towns, since all those stores are required to provide any bottle the company has in their inventory. In a small town, that may mean that you have to pre-order that particular bottle, but for me that’s better than a local wine merchant who has no obligation to provide anything but the most popular brands. Also, while cheap wines and liquor certainly is expensive, fine wines aren’t particularly more expensive here than abroad, since the store is buying in large quantities thus getting good deals and doesn’t use a higher markup on the expensive brands. In fact, the markup (and alcohol tax) is more or less the same whether you’re buying the cheapest piss-poor crap or a Premier cru Bordeaux.
¹ For a semi-fictional description of the situation up here during the early middle ages, read Jan Guillou’s Crusades trilogy. It’s fairly accurate for a historic novel, and a good read as well. You can also find also some interesting stories about our traditional drinking patterns if you read the old Norse sagas.
ETA:
It’s definitely not “discouraged” by the average Scandinavian. Quite the contrary, if you disregard the religious and teetotaler communities. However, our authorities try to limit drinking by imposing taxes and limiting availability somewhat. You might call that “discouraging”
I was in Finland a few years ago, and the booze prices seemed pretty horrendously high to me, and that’s compared to the UK- 5 Euros for a can of what would elsewhere be cheap lager in a bar. Around 3 in a supermarket.
I’ve been in Italy a couple of times, the last time being in May of 2012. My observations were Italians were heavy drinkers, at least those older than 30 were.
I agree with the second part of your statement. We were in a club in Pisa and the majority of patrons were 18-25 and I noticed that hardly any of them were drinking at all, except coffee.
Keep in mind it was back in the 80’s when I was in Finland (the web sites I’ve looked at seem split on whether Finland is considered Scandinavian). I didn’t notice any significant sting in the price of beer we had at the pubs we were at. And we drank a lot of it!
Completely off-topic, but by coincidence, I just finished Guillou’s books about two weeks ago. You’re right, it was definitely a good read. And Guillou himself is apparently quite a character.
The usual distinction in English is Scandinavia is Denmark, Sweden, and Norway. The Nordic Countries are those plus Iceland and Finland. The usage isn’t perfect among all speakers, but that’s the general use of the term. I don’t know how it is used in the Scandinavian/Nordic region, but I’m guessing since Floater doesn’t consider it Scandinavia (and he’s from that Nordic part of the globe, right?) I’m assuming this distinction holds there, too.
But, yes, booze is a bit more expensive there.
There a nice comparative website for beer pint prices here. Note that the accuracy of these numbers will depend on the user-submitted data being reasonably accurate.
My recollection of the ferry from Denmark to Sweden (back in 1996) includes lots of Swedes bringing back lots of cases and bottles of alcohol purchased in Denmark.
It does, because that’s the correct definitions. Scandinavia: Norway+Sweden+Denmark
The Nordic countries: Scandinavia+Finland+Iceland
And to muddle the water slightly: Fennoscandia: Norway+Sweden+Finland (+Kola and the Karel)
The Scandinavian peninsula: Norway+Sweden (+Northern Finland)
</hijack>
…and Danes buy alcohol in Germany, and Norwegians buy alcohol in Sweden.
Mine too. I lived in the south of Sweden for a few months more than 10 years ago, and I also formed the impression that ships plying between Sweden and Poland, between Sweden and Finland, and between the Aaland Islands and Sweden/Finland, exist almost entirely for the purpose of selling alcohol on board and/or bringing people to where they could buy drink more cheaply. The ferry tickets themselves were very cheap. Some passengers do not disembark at the destination; they remain on board, treating the round trip as one long drinking session.
Really? Because when I went to Norway they were drinking like fish.
They solved the money problems in two ways:
Pre-parties at people’s houses to keep the cost down and
moonshine - someone turned up with a plastic bottle of home- made liquor. According to my Norwegian friend this is quite common. We are talking about a small island in mid-north, though.
The north of Italy drinks a lot more than the south of Italy.
Young Italians think they are drinking a lot, but it’s nothing compared to Ireland or the UK. Generally, Italians prefer to keep their dignity and don’t like to be falling down legless.
