What's the Straight Dope on Las Vegas slot machines?

I’m doing it like every good Christian Southern Baptist–I’m going to go to Las Vegas for Christmas. And because my brain’s fired, I’m going to engage in pretty flashing lights instead of card-counting… and go with slot machines.

I did some research on newsgroups. Basically, there seems to be 2 lines of thoughts regarding slot machines.

  1. Slot machines’ winnings are truly random, in line with the posted payback percentage. Casino bigwigs don’t touch the payback percentages at all. As such, there is no such thing as a “loose” or “tight” slot machine provided they both have the same posted payback percentage.

  2. Slot machines with a posted “average” payback percentage have their payback percentages tweaked according to the will of the Great Casino Bigwigs. For example, they might lower the payback % during busy nights and raise them back up during slow times, so they can claim an average of 97% payout or whatever.

So, what’s the Straight Dope on those 2 lines of thought?

Meaning your consciousness is seared. Right?

If the casino can cange the odds/payback it will when and if conditions warrant such a change.

Dopers don’t know because what goes on here stays here. Have you tried William Bennett?:smiley:

I was under the impression (and it may be totally off) that once the percentage is decided upon, it’s set by the gaming commission and locked using a lock that only the gaming commission has keys for. A change in the posted percentage would require the commission to come down, make the change, confirm it and lock it. Not really something you can do to every slot at peek time.

Indeed, G-d smote my brain as I made the Christmas flight reservations. :wink:

Interesting. In order to determine that, we’d have to poke into whether Las Vegas legalese allows wiggle room to control the payback in such a way that they can tweak the law to their advantage.

For example, how is the “average” payback measured? Is it done by a straightforward averaging of all payback rates, or is it fixed? If I had the payback tweaked to 120% between 5 AM to 5 PM, then tweaked to 70% between the busy times of 5 PM and 5 AM, I’d make more money that way than if I had it fixed at 95%, but I’m still within good legal room.

Thanks. I’d love a cite on that before I go off to use Stratosphere’s guaranteed fixed 98% slot machines. :slight_smile:

No hard cite yet (I’ll look for one), but I was watching a show on slot machines on TLC, or Discovery or some such. IIRC, all machines are regulated and tested by the gaming commision, and are required to pay out 75% of what they take in over the lifetime of the machine.

I’ll see if I can find the dope.

Here’s an article with a member of the gaming control board. From the interview:

Also, here’s a slot payback info page, by region.

Is this kinda what you’re after?

I just finished a gig writing software for casino marketers.

I don’t know the specifics of slot machines per se, but I can tell you that noway, nohow does the customer EVER win at casinos. The amount of science that goes into marketing and tweaking these games is horrendous. They watch your every move. They track “theoretical win” - the CASINO’S win, not YOURS - to the penny. They know where the high rollers are, they know what your habits are, they will do anything to get you back into that casino throwing your money away.

They are truly evil.

YES. That’s exactly what I wanted. Thank you, Scruloose.

That interview would imply that casino overlords can, indeed, tweak their machines within the limits of the law. I wish they’d be a little more specific on what extent casinos can do chip-swapping, but I guess that works.

Since my father and I are fans of the 25-cent and $1 machines, it looks like we’ll be taking a taxi to either Boulder Strip or N. Las Vegas.

*his information is pretty well known by the locals and that’s why many of them do their slot gambling away from the Strip unless they are drawn by a special slot club benefit or promotion. *

Any Las Vegas Dopers want to spill the beans on which casinos are considered the best? This article mentions several. As a reward, if we win anything (my dad has the best luck… I don’t think he’s ever walked away from a gambling session without being a few hundred dollars richer :eek: ), I’ll donate a portion to the charity of your choice.

Very interesting… can you give me some clues on how the software is tweaked to give casinos more money? Do they indeed randomly adjust payback rates?

BTW, I’m not out to win or else I’d be spending hours on end practicing the Hi-Opt II counting system. (Although, being the overachiever that I am, I’ll do just that anyway. :frowning: ) I’m out to have fun with flashing lights, and minimize my losses at the slots. :slight_smile:

It’s important to remember that a machine advertised with, say, a 97% payback will indeed pay back 97% over time. But this time may not coincide with your playing time.

I once worked in a casino as a slot change attendant, and I saw many players play a machine for hours, only to go home broke. I also saw some players hit the jackpot after only a few minutes of play. There was neither a pattern nor a correlation between the length of time played and winnings. The machines may indeed pay 97%, but they may not do it during the time that you’re playing them.

The chips do indeed ensure random payoffs within the parameters of the posted payoff percentage. In other words, a chip in a machine with a 97% payout generates more winning random number combinations than a chip with an 80% payout. The wheels mean nothing; pushing the button or pulling the handle a certain way means nothing. All that matters is the number that was randomly generated when the switch (activated by the button press or handle pull) made contact. The machine then takes the number, lines up the wheels accordingly, and pays out or flashes “Game Over,” as necessary.

Have fun playing, but always try to quit as a winner, no matter the size of the winnings. If, after two hours of play, you’re up only about $20; well, that’s still $20 to the good. Take it and go have a drink. Come back later if you like, or buy yourself something. But plowing that $20 plus your original stake back in hopes of hitting the Big Jackpot is playing a very slim chance indeed.

No matter how you choose to play, good luck!

No, the customer can win–if he or she knows when to stop, and the definition of “winning” is taken to mean “leaving with any amount over what the player walked in with.”

True, the casinos love to post pictures of slot players carrying oversized cheques made out for large amounts, and all won for a stake of only three (four, five, whatever) coins. But such payoffs are few and far between, and the odds of you winning that big are astronomical. I saw many players who came in for a little fun happily walk away with $20 more than they came in with. But I also saw many disappointed players walk away with nothing after pouring their money back into a machine, trying for the Big Jackpot.

Jackpots can be hit; I’ve seen more than a few in my time. But the frequency of them hitting is much less than the casino wants you to think.

The payout percentage determines the casino’s profits. Period. “PAYOUT” is the amount of cash actually dispensed vs. the amount the amount played. People who assume this can be manipulated somehow are working with some funky self-invented definition of payout. Payout is calculated by adding the “probability * payout” of each possible outcome. Note that since modern machines are all digital, this has nothing to do with the number of various symbols on the machine. The internal CPU calculates an outcome, and instructs the display to display that outcome. This makes it possible to set any outcome pattern they wish.

While it is impossible to exactly predict the payout of any machine that uses a “random number generator”, the payout will approximate the statistical expectation over time. The gambling commission does “audit the books” of individual machines to make sure that the bulk number of machines displays the expected payouts in the expected distribution. The major effect of this is: the casino can’t make appreciably more money than the payouts dictate. If they did, they would fail their audits.

And why would they bother? After all, aside from certain clearly marked banks, you rarely know the payout on any machine. It’s quite legal to set a specific machine to 92% payout, which actually DOES make more money for the casino, so why play expensive speacial-hardware tricks with a 98.9% machine, when you’re only going to make a certain return, regardless?

IMHO, the idea that there are “special times” or conditions is a classic gambler’s fairy tale that offers an illusion of advantage to the cognoscienti at the expense of the “suckers” – but on closer examination, would offer NO advantage to the house, and would complicate the machine unneccessarily, adding to the purchase price and operating cost of the machines.

Imagine what a headache this would be for a casino: if there is actually a loophole that the gambler can exploit, that machine isn’t going to have its expected payout, and may fail its audit. A hypothetical “late night jackpot” machine could be pounded at night by a knowledgeable gambler, but would be avoided by many gamblers during the day because it is visibly "dry’ or “tight”. (e.g. It’d need 200 fewer 5coin payouts to make up for each 1000coin payout – and since there are only 1440 minutes in a day, 200 “missing” payouts could be noticeable - that’s a missing jackpot every 7 minutes!)

There are several known simple, worthwhile “house tricks”, but slot players usually don’t find them very interesting, because they don’t offer the promise of a special advantage. For example, imagine three identical machines, with identical payouts. Since there are no probability tables posted (only payout tables, with no info on the relative probabilities), you could program A to offer many 2-10x payouts, but few larger payouts; B to offer more 10-20x payouts; and C to offer more 100x or higher payouts. Each would appeal to a different class of gambler or gambling superstition. The goal, after all, is to make sure that as many machines as possible get heavy play as possible. The hours of play a machine gets, the more money it makes off its relentless percentages.

Another trick: payouts are based on “max coin play”, but a big part of the calculated payouts are tied up in the “big” payoffs" which the 1-coin gambler isn’t eligible for. Therefore, despite a posted payout of 98.9%, the timid slot player may really be plugging his coins into a 75% machine by playing only one coin.

In the end, the reason I reject the “variable payout” theory is that it presumes that a casino would choose to create an additional variable (time of day, casino crowding, etc.) that is under the gambler’s control (s/he can choose when to play or not play). Why would they add expensive hardware to create what amounts to a loophole for the player, when they have plenty of ways of adding appeal (and player hours) that aren’t under the potential control of the player?

The same thing that makes this myth appealing is exactly what makes it impractical and unwise. You can pretend that your winnings would be drowned out by the 99% of suckers, but even in that case, what could the casino possibly gain for all their trouble?

[1] aka an “RNG” – actually a reasonably good pseudorandom number generator (PRNG). A real RNG would need some internal source of entropic bits, like radioactive decay. The PRNG in a slot machine uses a high precision internal clock, the precise (e.g.) millisecond a button is struck, and a mathematical algorithm with a difficult to predict output to determine the outcome of each spin.)

Here’s an older thread on slot machines which may be of interest.

KP, thank you SO much for the informative post. What you wrote makes a lot of sense. I will be sure and remember this part in particular:

Another trick: payouts are based on “max coin play”, but a big part of the calculated payouts are tied up in the “big” payoffs" which the 1-coin gambler isn’t eligible for. Therefore, despite a posted payout of 98.9%, the timid slot player may really be plugging his coins into a 75% machine by playing only one coin.

Thank you. That thread answered the original question perfectly. :slight_smile:

There are no tricks. There are no methods. In the long run, you will always lose all of your money playing slot machines. If you are entertained by this, knock yourself out. Who is anyone to tell you how to spend your money?

KP’s post is excellent. The casino would have no benefit in paying staff to manipulate machines at different times of the day. The casino would have no benefit in having money making machines down while they are being manipulated.

Vegas really started to take off when someone finally figured out that there was much more money to be made running an “honest” game. Bleed them little by little, let the occasional guy win and watch your profits soar.

Haj

In General, and this is by no means factual or based on anything more than my slight experience playing slots, I noticed that the smaller denomination 5¢ slots tended to pay me off more frequently and in greater volume (number of coins)- of course this is offset by the lower denomination, but if you’re smart and take the coins rather than play the credits it can add up to an advantage— albeit a small advantage, and in fact, I only really came out ahead playing nickel slots. As I understand it, if you come out ahead playing slots in any amount then you are a big winner. The Quarter slots are kind of hit and miss and I would imagine they are the workhorses and bread and butter of the casinos–I would say they are sort of “medium” as far as payoffs. Of Course, you can get lucky and win a fair amount of money on quarter slots. I believe the high dollar machines are a bit looser as well, I played one 5$ dollar machine on a whim and tripled my money on my first and only spin. Luck or odds…I don’t know.
Just one rule when playing slots always play the maximum number of coins. If you do get lucky your payoff is relative to the higher bet.

B.t.w.- I discovered the real way to win at slots is to put five dollars into a nickel machine and and order a free drink…the object is to nurse the machine and slam your free drinks-- as many as possible while skinning along on your five dollars. This is the true advantage to slots. You will come out ahead every time if you do the math.