Unfortunately, Nader supports the flat tax, which I strongly oppose. But, I must agree with Jodi. That was your best post ever jmullaney.
CSmith said:
Would you consider valid arguments against atheism to Stalin’s gulags, Mao’s Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution nastiness, or Pol Pot’s killing fields (all more recent than the quoted examples btw)? I certainly wouldn’t. What do those atrocities have to do with the question one way or another? By the same token what do the former atrocities have to do with the truth or falsity of Catholic doctrine (which I disbelieve for other reasons entirely)? Especially since one of those doctrines is that all humans, except the orignal two and two later ones, are born sinful- if anything you could cite the atrocities as confirming evidence for that doctrine.
Wrong. “Original Sin” doesn’t mean people are born sinful – just that people are born into a world where it is difficult to discover God. I had a thread on that a long time back, and though my views have probably evolved since then, the OP does contain the Catholic teaching on that subject.
I am looking forward to getting some help here before I come back tomorrow but I have time for one more post for the day.
I am an atheist, but that says very little about my specific philosophy. Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot, all have some similarities but also a lot of differences. I don’t really relate to them at all. The only thing that I know I have in common with them is that we don’t worship anything. To my knowledge, I have never been a part of any organization that they had any part in. I think the burden is on you to research the philosophies of these groups and link it to that of mine i.e. Reductive Materialism. If you succeed, I will genuinely rethink my philosophy. I don’t guarantee I’ll change, but I’ll give it some serious thought.
I know there are many different brands of Catholicism. I am not entirely familiar with the subtle differences. Maybe Catholics separate themselves from the historic atrocities by saying that the organization that they are a part of bares little resemblance to the Catholic Church that created the Inquisition. There have been some changes. I must point out, though, that indulgences were never officially banned, they just went out of fashion, and that the current Pope brought them back for the Jubilee. Once again the temptations to abuse power and wealth are increasing. What significant differences are there between the modern Catholic Church and the historic one?
Wow, I suddenly notice I am being really harsh here. I don’t really think that Catholics are evil or anything. I am just saying that this is a legitimate criticism, and modern Catholics should be prepared to answer it. I could do some research and argue the other side myself. I apologize for anyone who has been offended by my harshness here. I’m honestly just trying to see what interesting arguments might crop up. Talk to ya tomorrow.
Which criticism is legitimate? That the R.C. Church has a lot to answer for? I think that’s not only legitimate, it’s a no brainer.
But it’s not quite the same as the OP. Csmith wrote:
Provoking people with anti-religious arguments is not the same as legitimately arguing against the actions of the Catholic Church. People will correctly percieve the former as a personal attack; the latter is just good conversation.
Were I to argue that the United States government has a great deal to answer for, I would get a solid debate; were I to “provoke” people with “anti-American” arguments, the debate would be a lot less civil. Csmith was a little unclear as to precisely what he was trying to debate, but when he says that all the Catholics he meets don’t know anything and don’t have informed opinions, my offhand guess is that many people he encounters DO have informed opinions but are unwilling to “Debate” with someone who’s bordering on insulting them.
I agree that the OP was not well thought out. Still, there is a potentially enjoyable and educational debate open to us here. Do I need to start a new thread to discuss how various religious people justfiy their support of religious organizations that have historically done so many awful things? I think that is the core of what the OPer wanted to discuss.
I will be checking in until about 5pm central and then I’ll be gone until monday. So, if the debate starts without me, don’t think I have entirely abandoned it.
I’d go with starting a new thread on this one, VileOrb. Unless you want the debate bogged down with endless troll hunting.