What's With The Guns?

The BBQ Pit
61

A lot of the appeal of guns for me is related to the appeal of trains, automobiles, and sailing ships - they are interesting machines with a huge historical importance, and with thousands of variations on the design over the years. I love reading about the various innovations made with firearms over the years and how they effected warfare and society in general.

There’s also the appeal of things that are fast, noisy, and destructive. I can’t think of anything else a normal civilian can purchase that allows you to control something moving at supersonic speeds. People also like making loud noises, note the popularity of firecrackers or blowing up a plastic bag and popping it loudly. And I also enjoy the practice and the concept of punching holes in things from a distance…when I got my first BB gun, just the idea I could point it at a can across the yard and punch a hole clear through it was cool. It’s incredibly fun to shoot stuff.

Then there’s the basic aesthetic appeal firearms have. A functional firearm has to be compact, reliable, and fit the human hand well - and over the centuries they have become so refined that modern firearms are almost universally elegant in appearance to me - simple but precise. I have something small enough to hold in my hand that, with only the power of my finger squeezing a trigger and the potential energy that transfers to springs, detonate a small explosive charge that moves a projectile down a perfectly-fitting tube, and with the same motion cycles the expended cartridge out of the way and places another in position for a second firing. It’s such an ingenious and clever device that the same basic design has been used for over 150 years, and revolvers are still considered more reliable and safe than semiautomatic weapons, which is why they are still in use. All this and pretty too.

Of course, there is also the feeling of power firearms give you, and the certain solemnity it inspires when someone familiar with them handles them. I know just how dangerous my gun is, and that enforces a kind of calm, cautious, and precise thinking when I am using it or maintaining it. I imagine the feeling one gets from properly performing Japanese tea rituals is the same I get from cleaning and loading my gun - it’s really quite peaceful. And the knowledge that I could take someones life with the squeeze of my index finger gives me an awareness of mortality and the power invested in all humans.

62

Well, the thing is, hunting is still a valid choice. Most decent target guns are, at the least, dual function with hunting. In fact, when hunting, you may be able to deal with a ‘lesser’ gun than when target shooting. For example, when you reload a gun, you move it, changing your point of aim. Thus, a multiple round clip is more useful in a target gun. In a hunting gun, if you miss, your point of aim has moved considerably as it just ran off, and thus you are free to reload at leisure.
http://www.barrettrifles.com/compete.htm
This, the Barret .50, is one of the ‘guns I want to fire’. It has incredible range, and is a real extreme challenge for accuracy. It also can penetrate cars the long way. It’s very hard to define a concept as ‘just for hunting’.

Pistols? Pistol target practice is even more challenging than rifle, because since the barrel of the pistol is shorter, the weapon is inherently less accurate. So why do it? Because it is more challenging. And because you can do more things with it. Fast draw practice, for one. The lighter mass of the pistol lets you flip it around and pick off multiple targets in split-second timing. It’s a traditional sport…
http://www.fastdraw.org/fd_gallery.html

And, of course, I know a dozen small businessmen who work mostly in cash. The local comic book store guy, for example. Not the best location in the world. So what he does, is, when he has to carry five grand in cash to the bank? He wears a pistol. It’s legal, it’s registered, and he is just a bit safer for having it, because he can’t ask for a police escort, and he’s a really good target for thieves.

63

Uvula Donor, your non-answer is indeed a juvenile response: it’s snotty, it begs the question, it presumes that Rebekkah is “never going to get it,” and implies that neither she nor the question deserves any actual thought. ParentalAdvisory, that goes for your pile-on too – Bricker’s post is clear evidence that the question CAN be answered thoughtfully and intelligently.

I’ll add my own thoughts. I’m pretty neutral on the subject; like Rebekkah, I have never owned a gun, nor hunted. However, I have fired rifles and pistols as a guest at firing ranges, at summer camp, and as an ROTC student in high school. I like guns fine. I admire good engineering, I enjoy gaining and demonstrating technical proficiency, and I’m not scared of things that go “boom.” Yet I see the havoc that criminals with firearms wreak on our neighborhoods, I see the tragedy caused by gun accidents, by guns in the hands of mental cases, and by guns used with poor judgement, and I think “man, there’s too many of these things lying around.”

My father was a scout in WWII; he qualified for sniper school, but didn’t go, and when the war was over, he never touched a weapon again. We didn’t hunt, we didn’t shoot, and we didn’t have bb-guns when we were growing up. I’ve lived in some moderately unsafe neighborhoods, but I’ve never feared so strongly for my safety that I wanted a gun. I’m more afraid of the rage and paranoia that some gun owners display when restrictions are discussed.

Frankly, it’s this attitude:

that’s a big problem in this country. We’re raised to believe that “rugged individualism” is a desirable trait and “dependence is not,” that only the weak (and unfit?) will back down from a fight insteading of sticking up for themselves – in short, that it’s a moral failure to prefer social tranquility over your “rights.” Contrary to Liberal’s post, it seems to be getting worse. Maybe it’s just the media. America has always been a violent place, where those who could not get along with others would flee to its vast unpopulated spaces, until they were shoved together and started shooting.

Getting back to the OP, there are several reasons why guns are popular in this country. Mostly, it’s self-perpetuating – they’ve never been unpopular, and most of America has always had them, grown up with them, gone hunting, etc. Note that I say “most of America,” not “most Americans”; most Americans live in cities, where guns are problematic, there’s no place to hunt, and personal protection is the main reason for having guns. In cities, handguns are more common, as are criminals with guns and untrained clueless dipshits with guns. But vast stretches of the U.S. are still “small-town” enough for the old ways to linger.

A recent thread discussed the joys of knitting, needlepoint, and the annoying question “why do you do it?” Most people who knit or sew enjoy keeping their hands busy; most people who play “shooter” video games enjoy the challenge of getting the right shot off at the right time; most people who play Sim or Civ games enjoy the challenge of managing each detail for optimal outcome (I hate all of that, I’d rather read, and the only computer games I really like are the Myst series and other puzzles). Other people enjoy the unique challenges that come with shooting targets, or that come with shooting live targets (hunting). Others enjoy caring for their guns, and collecting new ones with interesting technology – these are like the fishermen who are in it for the fly-tying.

I could go on, but Preview reveals that many of my points have already been made, and I’ve been working on this post off-and-on for hours.

64

Actually, Rebekkah, I see where you are coming from, and as a gun-nut. I promise not to jump all over you. We just get skittish when people ask questions the way your OP was phrased. Usually they are a prelude to “take them away and melt them down” rants.

Now, without having to “justify” my tastes in activities and property, I will say what others have said. I like guns. They go “bang.” I have been trained from an early age to respect and be careful with firearms. I own many…some because they are fun to shoot, some for hunting, some for defense. Most of the Mauser rifles I own are because once I get locked into collecting something, it tends to take on a life of its own. Now I want one from every country that ever used them!

Shooting is a skill that is fun, productive, and visceral. It also allows me to safely keep guns in my home, because I know how to use them and even more, when not to use them.

Thank you for actively attempting to fight your ignorance. Few of us do that these days. If you weigh all the opinions and facts, and still dislike guns…so be it. At least you were open about it. :smiley:

65

Rebekkah: Both points you raise have to deal with the ultimate effectiveness of someone using a gun for self defense. That, I would argue, is their choice. Yes, it probably takes more time to unlock your guns and load them with ammo than to get your trusty bat and start cracking heads. But then again, that’s a personal decision. Same for carring a gun versus carrying mace.

And, ultimately, people have the right to choose their own (legal) methods of self defense.

66

This is an interesting question, Rebekah. I’ve lived in Western Canada all my life, and most people have rifles (mostly for shooting gophers :smiley: ); when I was a kid in Saskatchewan, I recall the boys taking the Firearms Safety course so they could go hunt with their dads in fall. I have never seen a pistol anywhere except on a police officer.

I would not say Canadians live in an anti-gun world, but our attitudes towards guns do seem radically different from the U.S. attitudes. Guns and fun don’t seem to go hand-in-hand naturally here. Guns and hunting - sure. Guns and self-protection - not really.

67

Well you’ve kind of already made up your mind that my answers aren’t good enough. I buy them and own them for the same reason that I have computers, rollerblades, DVDs, and a bunch of other stuff.

I wanted them for my own enjoyment.

That’s the real reason I own them, though. I’m not about to spin circles if that’s too ‘juvenile’ for you.

Locks tend to keep honest people honest. The kind of people who break into your house (or that actually broke into my home) don’t let a little thing like a locked door deter them. And at 2:30 in the morning, five to ten minutes away from police intervetion, in a very enclosed space, I was damned glad I had something better than a broomstick. I drew my gun. I gave the intruder the chance to run, and he took it. If he had made another step towards me, I would have pulled the trigger, no question.

68

Ever shot a BB gun? You know, the Red Ryder model with the compass in the stock. Doesn’t go fast enough/hit hard enough to break the skin or even leave a good bruise. But, it’s awfully fun to ding tin cans or little paper targets taped to a tree.

Scale that up, and you get the same kind of fun, only with more bang, longer ranges and more challenge to it.

I own several guns- a couple of shotguns and a snub-nose 38 special I inherited, along with a 22 rifle (Ruger 10/22), a 22 target pistol, a 9mm automatic and a 8mm Mauser surplus rifle.

All I do is go to the local range and shoot at targets at varying ranges. I can’t think of a more fun way to spend an afternoon- you’re outside, you’re doing something fun, and you’re almost always with nice, helpful and friendly people. That’s one of the things people don’t get- gun range people are, in my experience, some of the nicest and most helpful people you’ll meet. They don’t tolerate sloppy gun handling because it’s not safe, but if you’re following the rules, most will trade off guns for a bit with you, and will happily talk your ears off during the cease fires at the range. That’s one of the biggest reasons I like shooting- I like the people that do it.

69

Growing up, my Dad hated guns and forbade me to have anything to do with them. Meanwhile, many of my friends were going on weekend hunting trips with their dads and going to the local gun ranges occasionally. Many of my friends when I was 16-17 had gun safes or gun racks in their rooms and had grown up with firearms.

The first time I shot a gun (went to the range with a friend, without my dad knowing), I was terrified. I was afraid the gun was going to explode in my face. My friends always talked about guns “kicking” and I was worried that I’d fire my friend’s rifle and be bowled over by the recoil or something. Thankfully, I had good instruction from my friends and got a good idea of what to expect.

When I went off to college, skeet shooting was a big pastime at my fraternity’s off-campus country house, which was on a huge swath of property in the middle of nowhere. Again, I had good instruction from some friends and found out that I was pretty good at skeet shooting. (A natural, if you will…) Since I was good at it, I took to it and competed in a charity event and earned a 2nd place trophy, missing only 1 out of 60 clay birds. (I lost to a guy who had one of those ornate over-under shotguns that looked to be more expensive than my education. So I think I did pretty well considering the guy had probably been shooting for much longer than I.)

Some time later, my family went on a cruise and there was a skeet shooting competition where they launched pigeons off the back of the boat. I had a talk with my dad and told him I knew he hated guns, but that I had done some skeet shooting at school and was pretty good at it. He took it rather well and actually went to the back of the boat to watch me win the competition, which was a big step for him.

These days, Dad is still vehemently anti-gun, but he’s come to terms with the fact that this is a hobby for me.

I’d encourage anyone who is interested but intimidated or scared to take a gun safety course and check out their local gun club. I think instruction is the key (especially on safety issues) to enjoying oneself, if guns are your thing. I look back on the first time I fired a gun and how petrified I was, and I don’t think I would have done very well if I didn’t have the instruction from people who had grown up with firearms.

70

Re-reading my post, I shouldn’t say “most Western Canadians have rifles”; more accurately, a lot of rural Western Canadians have rifles, and they are used almost exclusively for gopher hunting and hunting in general. And chasing off revenoors, of course.

71

My husband and I own several guns. He got his first gun when he lived in the wilderness in Alaska and needed a gun for protection from wild animals and to hunt for food. When we got married I didn’t see any reason to have a gun in our home so he left his gun locked up at his parent’s house.

Then an ex-boyfriend started calling and leaving messages on my answering machine. He told me that God had come to him to reveal the truth that I was blind to. That the man I had married was actually Satan in disguise. God gave my ex-boyfriend the job of getting me out of Satan’s clutches, thus saving my soul from the fiery pits of eternal damnation.

At first my husband and I just laughed at these calls. But then we started hearing about other cases where someone went nuts, and thought God told them to go out and kill someone. We talked to a friend in law enforcement and he told us there was nothing the police could do to ensure our safety. He suggested we take some steps to make sure we could protect ourselves if needed. That was when I decided I would feel safer with a gun in the house.

Before my husband brought the gun home, I enrolled in a safety course at the local shooting range. I learned how to safely handle, load and shoot the gun. After I practiced enough that I could hit anything I aimed at, we brought the gun home.

Since that time we have bought several more pistols, rifles, and shotguns. I was really surprised to find how much I enjoyed my time at the shooting range. I was very good in high school at archery, and found that same ability transferred to target shooting. I enjoy shooting all types of guns, each is different and a challenge to really master. My favorite part is going to the outdoor shooting range and firing at exploding targets. The best is when you hit the target, it explodes and catches the cardboard target stand on fire. I now look at shooting as a fun hobby, something my husband and I can enjoy together.

The neighborhood I live in now has a very low crime rate. In time that could change, and I am glad I have the guns now. I can see a time in the future when I no longer felt safe in my own home, but guns have been banned and I would not be able to get one.

So no, I have never had to use a gun for protection, but I am really glad I have the guns here and know how to load them in seconds and use them if needed. To me it is similar to a box I have stored away that I call my earthquake, tornado, really bad snowstorm box. It has water, flashlight, batteries, radio etc. I haven’t had to use that yet either, but I am really glad it is there, just in case.

72

I like guns because they are fun to shoot. It’s as simple as that. I never expect to use either of my guns for self defense (it’d be damned impractical in both cases, especially as one of them is a muzzle-loading flintlock); I never intend to hunt with them; I own them because I find them interesting from a historical standpoint (one is, as I said, an early 19th century reproduction flintlock; the other is the model of rifle the British carried in the Great War), I think they are good to look upon, and I enjoy taking them out to a range and firing them. I like the noise, I like the smell, and I like the challenge of target shooting with a gun as much as I ever did with a bow and arrow.

73

I really do encourage you to try it sometime. If nothing else, it would be an educational experience for you.

I agree with the others who say education about firearms is extremely important. My dad took me out at an early age and showed me how to properly use a gun. This meant not only how to load and shoot a gun but how to hold it properly (never pointed at anyone, whether it is loaded or not), and most importantly how to respect it. I also took a gun training course through our local sportsmen’s club. I truly believe that was a valuable experience and encourage everyone who has kids to do the same, whether there are guns in their home or not.

It irks me when people have guns and keep them high up on a shelf, locked in a box (and yes, guns should always be locked up with the ammunition locked in a separate location) and “hidden” from their children. Of course children are going to be curious about what mom or dad has in that box. Those are the children who are going to be most likely to find some way into that box to get the gun and try to figure it out and end up hurting themselves or others. The children who are taught to respect guns from a young age are going to know exactly what’s in that box and how to use it, but will also know that a gun is nothing to play around with. A gun is really nothing to be afraid of if you’ve been taught how to properly use and respect it.

74

Reviewing my OP, I think I didn’t make my intent very clear, but I hope I’ve cleared that up now. I’m not irrational, and I know guns are around for awhile. So, now that I’ve read a few posts that talk about shooting at a range being fun, I find myself a little curious. I wonder how much more comfortable I’d be with the idea of a gun if I knew something about them beyond abject terror?

I never grew up in a rural location, but this is the general impression I have. Guns for hunting are ok, I’ve never even heard of the guns as fun idea, and the idea of self protection doesn’t even make sense to me… I guess this is where my OP was coming from.

Sigh, where’s a dead horse when you need one? Look, I think I’ve made it clear that I’m looking for insight. “It’s fun and I can” gives me no more information than I had when I opened the thread. If you have nothing to contribute, stay the fuck out of my post. I’m not holding a gun to your head and demanding you justify yourself to me, so don’t get all in a twist.

What in the world would shooting this asshole have done. He’s a burglar, right? He’s not threatening you directly? And you get to meet out the ultimate justice for his crime by shooting him? Jesus, that’s reactionary.

The more of these I read, the more curious I get. The only class I made a point of attending in gym was archery, and I loved it… the targeting and the thrill of hitting the bullseye. Maybe I’d enjoy target shooting…

This is a terrible situation, and I can understand where you’re coming from. In this case, owning a gun (responsibly, as you do), makes sense to me. But this is an extreme situation, I hope, and I hear so much about average situations where people have guns for self-defense, and I worry this would make the situation worse… I guess that’s the self defence I’m talking about.

75

Maybe I’m not getting your post, Nametag, but I see individualism as a rather admirable trait. I prefer nonviolent discourse as the solution to any problem, but I don’t think a want/need to be independent necessarily leads to an attitude that backing down from a fight = weakness.

76

Hi,

John Lott’s a fraud. Any researcher who creates a false persona in order to praise his own research and write glowing reviews of his own books is not to be trusted. Also, he’s a member of the American Enterprise Institute and as such has a vested interest in showing that carrying guns as a matter of course is a Good Thing for philosophical, not practical, reasons.

For the record, I have nothing against guns. I was taught to hunt when I was in the eighth grade and much of the course, including the use of firearms, was practical. Hunting’s not my bag, but I can’t say I’m opposed to it. If I lived where carrying concealed weapons was legal I might choose to do so. Not because It Would Be My Right, Dammit, but simply because I don’t trust the judgement of the average shmuck. It’d be just my luck to cross the wrong guy on the wrong stretch of freeway on the wrong day.

I’d say I feel lucky to live in a place where needing to arm myself doesn’t occur to me, but I don’t feel lucky. To me, it’s the natural order of things to not live in fear of being attacked. I can understand Rebekkah’s befuddlement.

77

You’ve been brought up with Canadian bias on guns. It’s understandable (even though I’m surprised as you’re in Calgary, a mostly ‘conservative’ province). Before I got into guns I was somewhat scared of them. Movies did a lot of damage in what I thought guns could do (now with my firearms course under my belt I get to laugh at movies were guns are used in silly ways or with huge exploding cars and heads).

I just recently passed my PAL firearms license for both restricted and unrestricted firearms. I got my license (a real bitch in Canada) for the sole purpose of target shooting. You’d probably be surprised how gun-oriented Canadians are. We have more guns per person than the US. Rifles and shotguns, being unrestricted, do not require anything special other than a 8 hour class to own. I can even keep one in my car as I drive around. .50 caliber rifles (used by American liberals as a scare tactic) are perfectly legal and no big deal. Many rifles are cheaper than my paintball gun!

Your questions are answered by the firearms course. You cannot use firearms in the defense of your home. Unless you’re ‘cleaning your gun’ just as they try to enter your home, you won’t be able to have your gun out and ready in time. There isn’t any ‘self defense’ clause for us gun owners. Guns and ammo should be secure at all times.

Most robberies happen when no one is home. Unless there’s a reason for them to hurt you (like a personal attack) guns are rarely needed for pure defense. Basically the 2 police officers who taught the course (long time beat cops and detectives) couldn’t imagine a robbery were the robber would go out of their way to find an occupied home to rob and hurt/kill the occupants unless you did something or were known to these criminals.

Guns are not a big deal really. The news outlets will try to make a big deal out of it but really, gun crimes are rare in Canada. The statistics used in our course showed IIRC 80% of all gun deaths are suicide. 5% are accidents and ~14% are murders (with 1% everything else). You still have much more to fear with a car accident than a gun accident.

Crime levels have nothing to do with gun ownership (in fact, any owner willing to go through the trouble of getting a CCW or a PAL are less likely to bother breaking the law). The fact is, Canadians just don’t commit that many crimes and in the US, crime rates are going down regardless of how many gun laws there are.

78

Another person from my neck of the woods! Hello!

This is exactly what I was trying to say. While I am aware that I could be attacked, I feel perfectly safe at night and the thought doesn’t cross my mind unless I’m in a dangerous situation. Thanks for saying what I was trying to!

79

Your post was a non-sequitur, Johnny L.A., but:

cite?

Pursuit of happiness? Interesting theory, there. :dubious:

80

He was a criminal who broke into my occupied home. He forced his way through a locked door in the middle of the night, and therefore posed a threat to my safety and possibly to my life. I was not about to hang around and find out what he wanted. Pennsylvania law says that I don’t have to, either. Here, his entry into my home in the middle of the night gave me ‘reasonable fear’ for my life. Had he advanced in the face of a firearm, it would only serve as further proof to me that he was intent on doing me serious harm or killing me.

I don’t, today, know what would’ve happened if I wasn’t armed. Thank Og and the Constitution for that.