Nothing malicious at all, folks who are genuinely interested are a rarity as usually it’s the same old “anti argument” and that gets very tiring. I carry a gun all of the time when I am home (because of where I work carrying here is not an option). A Cop in my motorcycle club was the final straw that got me to start carrying, he told me “the Police are not in the crime prevention business” and he told me that my personal safety is my responsibility.
The world has changed in the last few years. We had a deal in my neighborhood where a high school kid had been saying to his friends that he was going to drive a new Lexus to school on the last day, so that morning he walks down the street to a house with a new Lexus in the driveway, knocks on the door and when the homeowner answered he began shooting. He found the keys and drove the car to school (about 10 minutes away) and was arrested an hour or so later, this guy killed 2 people and gave up his freedom for a 10 minute car ride and folks who make decisions that badly scare the crap out of me. (this is but 1 example and sadly there are many, many more).
I went through an extensive background check and was fingerprinted and photographed and attended a mandatory training class before getting my permit, this was all in Texas where the anti’s would have you believe they will give a permit to anyone. I can carry just about everywhere (except bars, schools, hospitals and Federal buildings and a few others).
I have spent most of this thread explaining why I asked the question. I have rarely followed up with repsonses because I found them largely enlightening, and when I did have questions, I asked them.
If I wanted people to post IMHO without engaging their ideas at all, this would have been an IMHO thread.
I think I’ve acknowledged quite openly that there were ideas posted here I hadn’t considered. My interest here is not to debate gun ownership, as I’ve stated again and again, for fucks sake.
Here’s a good reason for the question. In my early education, I held some fairly staunch ideas, (pro-choice! anti death-penalty! etc) without really understanding WHY I felt that way. It occured to me yesterday that I’ve been anti-gun ownership (although not vocally) in my mindset, and I have never talked to people who owned guns. Since I saw the potential for this thread to go off the deep end, I put it in the pit. I don’t think I was disingenuous. I never claimed the question wasn’t answered, in fact MANY people have posted responses that I felt were enormously helpful. I do however take exception to the idiots who popped into my thread to say “because I can, na na na na na na na”, like children. Remember, I never asked you to justify to me why you should own a gun… who the fuck am I to ask that. I asked willing participants to explain to me the allure. I acknowledged my bias from the onset to clear up the question, not to smack gun owners over the head with my heavy handed moralism. If you didn’t want to answer the question, all you had to do was stay the fuck out of my thread. Furthermore, I’m not the one who has a comprehension problem. :rolleyes:
Anyone else want to shit in my thread?
For those people who took my question seriously, thank you.
[/QUOTE]
Hell, I don’t like guns. I’ve fired lots of them (I was a soldier) and I was pretty good at it, but I dislike them. But the people in this thread have certainly explained to MY satisfaction why they want to have guns. It’s clear to me. What’s your comprehension problem?
[/QUOTE]
RickJay- I am beginning to think your thoughts may be on track. I hope not.
In keeping with your signature- Can someone tell me how to set my Laser Printer to Stun?
You may not like hearing that, but you’re coming off like you came here to have your preconceived notions reinforced by shooting down the same answers again and again. Why can’t you just accept that people just enjoy firearms the way other people just enjoy riding horses or just enjoy cake?
As for telling people to shut up and get the fuck out of your thread, and calling people names for explaining to you the usefulness of firearms in self defense, fuck you. You asked. You asked repeatedly. You claimed you wanted to understand.
Now you’re giving off the impression that the only reason you asked for more detail about self defense is so that you could call people like me, and like the father in Nicodemus’s example and Grits husband’s cousin, vigilantes and reactionaries.
You might get better answers if you got off the high horse.
Thanks for clarifying, Unclivny. Perhaps this is a shocking level of ignorance on my part, but I didn’t realize you could carry a gun in public for general protection and purpose… I was under the impression only law inforcement could do this. The story you tell is frightening indeed. I was thinking about this OP over dinner tonight and it occured to me that perhaps the reason I can’t imagine reacting to violence with a gun is centred around my uncomfortable relationship with them? To clarify, perhaps I could understand better guns for self defence if I knew how they worked? I’m still not clear in my head about all this, but I keep thinking the average citizen should not have to use a gun to protect himself, and I get a tad uncomfortable when when I think about guns in public. I wonder if much of this comes from my seeing them as some kind of “dark and dangerous” force… I’m really seriously reconsidering hitting a shooting range to get a little bit of first hand understanding.
That is very admirable of you to seek out opinions counter to the ones you hold. That is the spirit of what this board is all about. I am afraid that if you want to understand the appeal of guns for yourself, you need to go shooting just one time. Most people love it although some get scared. Guns can be objects of art in their design and surgically precise in their use. If you can find someone that owns one or their is a shooting range, ask them to show you how to shoot. I don’t think you will regret it even if it is not your cup of tea.
I do think that pulling a gun and shooting a burglar is reactionary. However, I don’t think I called Nicodemus a vigilante, I said his examples were representations of what I fear about guns. I don’t think ordinary citizens should be able to take justice in their own hands or be put in a position to defend themselves using a gun, but I know that it happens. These kind of stories are what scare me.
Also, I never asked you to justify to me why you should get to have a gun. Popping in to my thread to give a snarky nyah nyah response was rude. So yeah, then get out of my thread. If you have nothing to contribute, and I consider “because I can” on the level of nothing, then why bother posting unless you are trying to stir up shit?
How the hell can you explain why something is fun? It just IS. It’s fun. It makes a noise that is fun. It creates a smell that is fun. Focussing and trying to aim properly is fun. That’s like trying to explain why cake tastes good - it just DOES. “It’s fun” is a perfectly legitimate answer as far as I’m concerned.
A Gun is a tool just like a Hammer or a Dishwasher, it does a job. A Gun is not some evil thing waiting for a chance to jump up and cause mayhem, I think that anti’s are (Caution, painting with a giant brush here!!!) generally speaking scared of Guns because they don’t know much (or anything) about them and it’s Human nature to dislike things that you don’t understand.
The Gun crowd doesn’t do itself many favors though, there are a lot of “mall ninja’s” and “Gun store Commando’s” in this world and they give us all a bad reputation.
Unclviny (who can have calm, civilised talks about Guns forever)
I think that defending my life against harm is my right as a human being.
I don’t think that I should have to be in a position where I need to defend myself from someone who might kill me, but so long as that possibility exists, I’m going to have the best possible tool available to handle it.
You asked why, and I told you. I own them for no reason other than that I want to.
I gave you the real answer. You didn’t like it, so you decided to act like a bitch and call me juvenile and tell me to get out of ‘your thread.’ This is the Pit. You’re going to have to deal with answers you don’t like, and you’re going to have to deal with being told you come off like an asshole for asking a question knowing you’re going to snipe at people for their answers. You did know that before you asked, didn’t you?
It seems like you consider anything that’s not your prejudiced anti-gun bullshit to be ‘nothing’.
That’s kind of what I’m wondering about you. Why did you bother asking the questions knowing that the answers most people would give - enjoyment and self defense - would lead to you calling them juvenile, vigilantes, or reactionaries? Seems to me like you were spoiling for a fight.
Rebekkah- Two final thoughts before bed.
First, I did not have the impression you were calling me those things (vigilante, etc.) and I regret the degree to which this has inclded some uncalled for name calling by some posters.
Second, I thought you could use closure. The example of the father and son: well as I said, one robber was killed and one was wounded and taken to the hospital. And yes, there was a manslaughter charge leveled… aginst the surviving robber! He is in jail charged in the death of his co-robber because, here, if you are in the commission of a capital felony that results in death, of a store-owner, a by-stander, a cop, or YOUR PARTNER IN CRIME, you are the one charged. I add this because I read that were you are people can be arrested and charged for shooting an intruder in their own home. This mind-set is as difficult to understand and it appears our’s may be for you.
I hope you follow through with finding somone knowlegable to give you some instruction and take you to the range. I predict that, once you have gunpowder in you blood, you’ll be back. Either way, thanks for asking.
Um… the physical mechanics?
Essentially a controlled explosion propells a slug down a barrel and then it dumps its kinetic energy into a target causing hydrostatic shock and/or ‘tumbling’ through the body cavity, ripping it to pieces.
The ontology of their self defense function?
Guns are, of course, lethal protection. But there are, of course, times when lethal force is called for in self defense situations.
What you don’t seem to get is that Rebekkah is coming from a Canadian perspective, and we truly do think of guns and gun culture differently here. It is a strange thought to me that people enjoy guns for the sake of guns. I’m not saying it’s better or worse, simply that it is different. It sounds like a lot of you were raised with the idea of guns for self-defense and home protection, as well as recreation. We simply weren’t, and I think that is what Rebekkah is questioning here - the United States gun culture, versus how we were raised in Canada regarding guns.
Like I said earlier, I wasn’t raised to think of guns as evil or as a toy, but as a tool.
I own my grandfather’s service pistol. I don’t have any other guns, so far. I shoot two or three times a month, usually about fifty rounds. It’s fun. It keeps my skills up to reasonable. I can hit a man sized target reliably every time at forty feet, and a head sized target reliably every time at twenty. (non moving targets.) Having that level of skill is pleasing to me. Using it would not be pleasing.
I generally carry my pistol to the range and back. Other than that it sits in a concealed location in my home, loaded. No children have access to it. I keep a hundred rounds in my home, fifty in magazines, one magazine in the pistol, and six on a belt with the holster. In Virginia we have legal open carry, and for a while that was fine. But it got cold. I put on my coat, and became a felon. I decided that was a bad thing. So, I applied for, and was issued a permit to carry a concealed handgun. OK, concealing a Colt M1911 is almost an oxymoron. But, I now don’t have to worry about inadvertently committing a felony by putting on my coat.
I have little interest in carrying the pistol in normal travel, or business. I generally don’t fear the world that much. Having the pistol has not made me feel like walking around ready to shoot people. I don’t usually carry it anywhere but to and from the range, or to a friend who has specifically expressed an interest in seeing it. Several times, I have invited friends to join me at the range, and a few times, I have joined others. It’s fun. It is also interesting to try other weapons.
I have seen another pistol that I found very interesting. A thirty eight caliber revolver, with a built in laser designator. Very practical, for an old fart like me. You see, I cannot hold the pistol still at full arm extension. I generally have to compensate, and fire as it falls on the tremble cycle. With the laser, though, I can hold the pistol in close to my body, since I don’t have to sight down the barrel. I am able to be as accurate at fifty feet with it as I am at twenty with my Colt. At twenty feet, I can draw smiley faces on the target, although I have to reload since it only holds five rounds. That kind of accuracy is very pleasing. If I ever get to the point that six hundred dollars for a second pistol doesn’t seem extravagant, I just might buy one.
Why? Because hitting what you shoot at is a pleasing thing. Missing sucks.
Now ask me why I am currently still trying to spend a hundred dollars on genuine 999 fine silver bullets for my 45.
Tris
“Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of ourselves.” ~ Carl Jung ~
Okay, fine. You want to tell me I’m stupid and condescending? Stupid, no. Condescending? Well, I wasn’t, but if that’s the level you want to play on, I can go there.
Illuminate your knowledge level as to what? They answer your question! Why do you own a gun? Because I can and it’s fun. Why do you play Monopoly? Because I can and it’s fun. Why do you masturbate? Because I can and it’s fun. Why do you and your friends listen to music and dance around like fools? Because we can and it’s fun. What the fuck do you want? A seventeen-page thesis? You asked why people wanted a gun. Some people want them because they’re fun. People like to do fun things. That is a valid answer to your question. I’m sorry you don’t like people’s reasoning behind things they do for their own amusement, on their own time, that do not affect you in the least, but for fuck’s sake, don’t INSULT them for it. “Juvenile” indeed.
I didn’t say you did. What I said was: “Then you got another answer – ‘for self defense’ – and dismissed that as impractical and equally unworthy of consideration”. Yes, you gave some reasons for your dismissal. That would be why I simply mentioned that statement of yours rather than attacking it as unreasonable.
Well what the hell kind of answer are you going to consider “reasoned and articulate” when you’re discussing something that people do in large part as a hobby and you won’t accept “because I like it”? Justify stamp collecting to me. Give me a well-reasoned and articulate rationale for playing GameCube. Present me with 500 words why anyone would ever choose to build model trains. Go! Do it! And “because they enjoy it” doesn’t count!
I’m glad you have an open mind about personal gun ownership (if in fact you do), but like every other subjective topic, it’s something you have to form your own opinion of based on experience. Going back to the movie example, everyone on the boards could give you a detailed assessment on why they liked/disliked a particular movie, and its individual strengths and flaws. None of it, though, could “change your mind” about whether or not you like the movie, because you’ve never seen it. You don’t have an opinion to change. Your own admitted total lack of experience with gun ownership renders anything anyone might tell you here meaningless to you…especially, again, if you’re going to dismiss half of it anyway.
Of course you’re not. It’s not like you’re holding a gun to their heads…after all, why the hell would you ever consider even having one?
Extrapolation from what? A valid analogy? That actually seems rather relevant to me, especially when you’ve just illustrated my point. Why are you forming an opinion of a movie you haven’t seen? Is using the opinions of others in lieu of personal experience SOP for you? Do you think any “opinion” thus formed holds any value?
Well, the part of my post to which you were responding with this bit was sincere. But, if you’re going to interpret my posts as condescending, I suppose I might as well earn it.
Rebekkah, I think you are being very disingenuous WRT catsix’s intruder. Notice that she did NOT shoot the intruder. Let me ask you a question: Same situation, a guy breaks into catsix’s home, she points a gun at him and tells him to leave. Suppose instead of leaving, he had advanced towards her. Can you reasonably say that at that point she would not be in danger for her life? I don’t see how you can. Given that, if she had shot and killed the man, it’s not reasonable to classify it as anything other than self defense. Not reactionary. Not vigilantism. Self defense. What’s wrong with defending yourself?
It’s kind of funny. I was considering giving Roland a pat on the back for a thoughtful, rational, and civil post that actually honestly tried to explain things nicely to Rebekah, and then she goes and flips the fuck out on him.
Rebekah can’t seem to decide whether she’s open-minded and willing to learn, or rudely dismissive of any honest answer to her question.
I doubt he was carrying a sign advertising his intentions. It’s quite reasonable to interpret “strange man kicking your door down” as a physical threat.
As has been pointed out, nobody was shot. The moral of the story is: killing someone is not the only way to defend oneself with a gun. Your belief that they are “solely manufactured to kill” is erroneous.
Maybe you just popped in from another planet, but around here, if you make an assertion, YOU back it up. You don’t say “do your own research”.
Wrong again. You said:
THAT was the statement for which I asked for a cite. In addition, I never said I didn’t believe anything; I merely asked you to back up your assertion that “many people in government want to take away people’s guns.”
The fact that your cites are blatant gun-nut blogs aside, you do realize that none of your cites are people in government, right? (Unless that last one is; it’s pretty much just a rant, so maybe something about the government is buried in there - who knows.)
Incorrect. You did say it, and I quoted you above.
You said both things. But my response was only in regard to the statement about the government.
Why don’t you shoot me with your big manly gun? Would that make you feel good? Would it make you feel macho?
If it’s so easily provable, why can’t you do so?
Don’t know what you mean about “previous posts”, but ‘pursuit of happiness’ is from the Declaration of Independence:
It doesn’t just mean, “Go nuts and do whatever you feel like as long as it gives you pleasure”. Are you really that dense?
But gun owners typically seem interested only in their own (circumstances). I cannot shake this observation, no matter how hard I try. I do understand the fun of owning and using a gun. I’m just suspicious of what people tell themselves to justify indulging themselves, because they tell me the same things and they don’t click, they blow up under close scrutiny.