What's wrong with the American auto industry?

I suspect that one reason US cars are so bad is that the companies are in Detroit. There is just such a difference between the coasts and the heartland. One example: people in crowded cities want a car that is easy to park, but American cars are big on the outside and small on the inside. On the west coast imports are the norm, so things like bench seats, column shifts, and foot operated parking brakes are just not acceptable. I know American car companies are changing, but they carry a rep they need to overcome. Also, if you want to hire the best and brightest designers and engineers you are hindered by being headquartered in Detroit. Imagine flying someone out to GM headquarters who just got back from interviewing with a California aerospace company or Microsoft.

The coasts also tend to be trend leaders while the midwest is often several years behind; for example, just trivial stuff like Sushi, the espresso craze, tattoos, piercing, etc. all happened first on the coasts. Hell, even Motown moved out of Motown.

There are cities in the Heartland too.

That article is from 2000, when hybrids were still in the experimental/novelty stage. According to this article, Total hybrid sales in 2000 were under 10,000 vehicles. 2006 sales were 246,000 vehicles, over 180,000 of which were made by Toyota.

Why?

Heh.

Very early in my career, I once applied for an contract “engineering” job with one of the Big Three. As explained to me in the phone interview, my entire job for the length of the contract (14 months) would have comprised of doing document reviews, attending meetings, interacting with suppliers, writing weekly status reports, attending weekly telcons, communicating with middle management, coordinating with union representatives, and Og knows what else…to place four placards inside the engine compartment. Four placards.

Despite being almost dead broke and out of work for a couple of months, I passed on the job. I’d rather go back to cooking or working in a lumberyard that that kind of pointless, inane, non-work job. I figure I would have lasted about two weeks before the desire to drive white hot piano wire in through one eardrum and out the other would have sent me to the nearest mental institution.

I don’t know how the Japanese (or the Germans, or the Italians, or whomever) do it, but I’m pretty confident that they don’t do it this way. Attention to detail is one thing, but compulsive attention to pointless details, while your ignition switch is catching fire and your steering wheel is falling off is an entirely different pile of Chapter 11 filings.

Regarding ease of maintenance and modularity, I’ll note that there are a few foreign automakers who’ve managed to do just that. Why the Big Three can’t do it as well…I’m going to call it institutional incompetence and a culture of apathy. I’m sure they’ve got some good engineering brains in there somewhere, but not working on low-to-mid range consumer cars.

Stranger

Wait, what? I can completely understand if you say there’s a problem that they don’t understand your demographic, but to say they should get out of Detroit/Michigan just for your demographic and because it magically makes everything better? Like they don’t have the Internet, conferencing, email, or even phones to keep up on these trends? With this being said, I’m with you, but certainly not for your reasons. Design is virtually gone as far as I’m concerned, and not just as a vocation. Take Ford, for example. They are copying the same basic styling for every car (Focus, Fusion, 300) and SUV (Escape, Expedition, Explorer, Edge). You can make the argument that they’re ALL the same design, just pulled and stretched to different extremes. The Mustang is a retro car, and those simply don’t count because they’re an appeal to Baby Boomers and wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for some retro styling.

Besides, Michigan is doing badly enough as it is. The auto companies puling up show and relocating to other states would turn the state into Wyoming. Nobody wants this (except whatever state would get these companies).

Saying that the biggest and brightest engineers are in the west coast is a bit of a misnomer. You’ve got a lot there because, well, you’ve got a lot of people over there. The law of averages dictates you’re going to have a crapload of engineers (which we don’t have NEARLY enough of, according to the industry). Michigan has the University of Michigan, which is one of the better engineering schools in the country.

Are we sure that the stricter California emissions and proximity to the Orient don’t play into the popularity of imports on your coast?

I’ve wondered about this question for years, and I have a hypothesis.

The only thing that makes sense is that their management orientation program must include a lobotomy.

I think American corporate boards have become too enamored with the idea that CEOs are some kind of superhero. They believe that you need the biggest and strongest person in charge to solve every problem. And if he fails, you need somebody bigger and stronger. Salaries get astronomical as corporations get in bidding wars for CEOs who jump between companies that are in very different industries. In situations like this, it’s inevitable that CEOs begin to look at their current job as just an opportunity to maximize their personal earnings before moving on to the next corporation.

Corporations in other countries have different priorities. They put more emphasis on bringing up managers from within the company, for making the CEO the “first among equals” rather than the “commander in chief”, for offering more modest salaries than their American counterparts, and for tying in incentive rewards to actual past rather than theoretical future performance. The result is that these CEOs tend to know their business better and to view the their personal success more in terms of how well their corporation is doing. And many of these corporations are doing better business than their American counterparts.

Why is that? There’s no unified amorphous entity called “Not America” that acts as a single-minded whole, kept in check only by the presence of American-made goods. American-made cars are a minor factor in the Japanese market, so what keeps prices here from doubling since there’s apparently no price competition? If GM and Ford disappeared tomorrow, there would still be plenty of competition going on: Toyota competes with Subaru competes with Hyundai competes with Honda competes with Daewoo competes with Suzuki competes with BAW competes with Volvo competes with Skoda competes with Daimler competes with Maruti competes with BMW competes with Fiat competes with Renault competes with Citroen competes with Nissan.

If you think they’ll all collude so faithfully to squeeze American consumers once Ford and GM are out of the picture, why aren’t they simply colluding with those two as well so they can start raking in those huge profits right now? Are they really willing to hold off from making billions more in revenue just because they all share the same “US vs the rest of the world” mindview?

Nice post Sublight.

The decline of the US auto industry has little to do with the US auto industry. The “problem” is that the industry faces competition for its inputs from other more viable domestic industries and foreign automotive industries have got more competitive due to their industrialisation. The competence or otherwise of local management, entanglements due to the US’s odd arrangements in health insurance and union rigidity are all small beer.

The beginning of the downfall of auto companies was when accountants started to run the show. Any one can say we can make more money next year if we cut programs and employees. We can quit wasting money on design and research. Then when we go in front of the board next year and get HUGE bonuses for all the profits… But they sold the future to get rich quick. At one time the big three researched turbo, electric ,hybrid and Wankel engines. They were all stopped and we made very profitable SUVs instead. The R and D of the auto makers at one time was unmatched. But it cost money and eliminating it results in higher executive salaries and bonuses.

Sounds like they were (and probably still are) operating under this paradigm.

Huh? A special contract and over a year of work --to write four paragraphs saying “warning --do not remove while hot”
Is this really true? I’m fascinated …
You didn’t take the job, but maybe somebody else who has worked on car design could explain what this is all about? I just cant comprehend it. How long does it take to design the whole engine, it if takes a year to write the placards?

Oh no…I wouldn’t write the text on the placards, nor decide where they were to be placed. My job would have been merely to interface with all of the other interested parties on where the placards should go. Serious brainaching makework.

For the most part, car companies do very little engineering in house; they turn to contractors to perform detail design and analysis work, and concentrate on integrating the information or actual parts, and the business of actually assembling the components together. (Flint, Michigan is full of companies that do nothing but this.) This approach isn’t limited to automotive companies, but they do seem to take it to an extreme.

Stranger

One of the best books about the American auto industry, if a bit dated, is David Halberstam’s The Reckoning. Let me quote from chapter 18, “Kaiser tries Detroit”, which details the attempt WW2 shipbuilder Henry Kaiser made at breaking in the auto industry:

They don’t call it the “Big Three” for nothing. Stranger’s job is likely typical of the place.

Now you’ve got me hooked—is this a whoosh, or are you serious?
They wanted to give you a year’s salary–for what? Not to write anything, and not to decide where to place it after somebody else writes it–just to “interface” with the subcontractors–about 4 placards?

(sorry,that loud bang you hear is brain exploding…)

I’ve dealt with government bureacracies that were ridiculous, and that’s why I prefer the private sector. But how can a profit-making company be so totally inane? Am I missing something here?
How many external companies are involved in designing the engine, and are willing to pay their employees to “interface” with you for a year while the decisions get made? Who has the final say, and takes responsiblity for such an awesomely complex task as placing 4 placards on the car?

Mabe the old expresssion “as complex as rocket science” should be re-stated to “As complex as placard placement”
Then we could sell t-shirts saying, “well, yes, as a matter of fact, I am a placard-placer” :slight_smile:

Not a woosh, and I think you answered your own question, here. I’m morally certain that other car companies besides the Detroit Three have similar processes and waste, but not on the same magnitude of scale as Detroit.

Stranger

Domestic cars today are approaching and in some cases surpassing major import brands in terms of initial quality. While on average the U.S. industry still lags the Japanese industry, it’s ahead of the European manufacturers like Volkswagon and BMW. The Chevrolet Monaco has been rated one of the most reliable cars on the road. The Nissan Sentra, one of the worst. You’ll find cars from all manufacturers are each end of the spectrum.

There have been dramatic gains in quality and design from domestic automakers in the past 10 years. Unfortunately, they are still tarred from their history of crappy products, and it’s going to take a long time to turn that around.

One of the big problems the domestic manufacturers have is the cost of the retirement and health care contracts they negotiated in the 70’s. Back then, the unions were much more powerful and aggressive, and went on strike regularly for more pay and benefits. The auto makers punted the problem by agreeing to extremely generous retirement benefits - basically kicking the financial can down the road rather than coming up with higher salaries then. Essentially, they gambled. If the industry continued to grow, the relative cost of those retirement packages would be manageable. It’s the same problem as the Social Security problem - predicated on an increasing population of workers to provide for the health benefits of retirees.

Alas, it didn’t work that way. The number of current workers shrank, meaning the size of the retired work force is a higher percentage of overall cost than the companies counted on. The result is that on average, every ‘big three’ car made has roughly $1500 in costs added to it to support retired workers. $1500 in costs is a huge amount. All else being equal, that means other manufacturers can spend an additional $1500 on better quality materials and sell their car for the same price. That’s why the ‘bean counters’ at GM and elsewhere have to fight hard to keep their other costs down, cheaping out on materials and such.

Another problem is management. A lot of innovative manufacturing practices originated in Japan, and we were very slow to pick them up, and when we did we found that they don’t quite work as well here as they did in Japan due to cultural differences. We’ve spent a lot of time trying to figure out how to implement similar practices domestically while modifying them to work well within our corporate culture. For example, Japanese workers and engineers were much more willing to ‘toe the line’ and follow the exact letter of the law when procedures and rules are handed down. This makes management’s job much easier. If you come up with a new process, and apply it knowing that everyone will follow it religiously, you can gauge the results and modify it appropriately until you have it optimized. But if you company is full of shoot-from-the-hip engineers and lower-level managers, you can apply a process and see it fail, and not know WHY it failed. Was it implemented according to plan? Or did some people choose to implement it in their way? Or some think it was stupid and not implement it at all? Or rebel by implementing it in an extremely rigid fashion to ‘prove’ to someone how ‘stupid’ it was?

Don’t get me wrong - there can be tremendous benefits to having employees that try to be innovative and think for themselves - but not if you try to impose a rigid process on them based on the fact that it worked in another country with a different culture.

So domestic corporations have played catch-up for a long time on some of these issues.

But some differences between domestic cars and foreign cars has been due to a difference in the environments they operate in. Take car size and weight - Europeans and Japanese tend to drive their cars slower, for shorter distances, in more congested surroundings. This is going to drive car design towards making smaller cars with more precise steering, firmer suspensions, etc. American cars are driven on big roads at high speeds for long distances. Those roads may not be maintained all that well. This drives designers towards bigger, heavier, more powerful cars with handling a secondary design consideration and an emphasis on suspensions that absorb the bumps.

You’ll notice that as Japanese cars have gained market share in the U.S., they are looking more like U.S.-designed vehicles in terms of size and weight. Japanese trucks used to be tiny little things - now the Nissan Titan is a big truck. Japanese cars have been growing in size dramatically - compare the size of the Accord today to the size of the old Accord - the 1981 Honda Accord sedan had a wheelbase of around 94 inches. The latest Accord has a wheelbase of 107 inches - over a foot longer. In fact, there’s little size difference now between Japanese cars built for North America and domestic cars. However, those cars started out life with better suspensions, tighter steering, and retained those qualities. American cars have been catching up, but now a lot of them are really good.

Another thing to bear in mind is platform sharing, which is really blurring the line between cars from various manufacturers. The Ford Fusion uses the same chassis as the Mazda 6. The Ford Escape and Mazda Tribute are almost identical. Ford, GM, and BMW share a jointly-designed six-speed auto transmission. So quality lines are blurring across all the manufacuters, bringing them closer together.

So domestic cars have almost caught up to the rest of them, and in some cases are as good as or better than the alternatives. But in the interim, the domestics lost huge market share. The result is a dealer network that’s too big, product lines that are still spread out among too many internal brands, a pension liability that’s a bigger factor per car than it should have been, and a fight against public perception of quality that formed when these cars really did suck. The 80’s were a horrible decade for domestic autos, the early 90’s not much better, and people still remember that. It’s going to take a while for the domestics to erase the memory of the truly craptacular cars they were building not long ago.

In the meantime, they have to downsize further, drop some dealer, consolodate some brands, eradicate a few levels of management, and in general get a whole lot better at managing their companies.

As an aside, when you’re looking for a bargain a good place to look is for something that is better than its reputation. American cars can offer good value right now simply because they are playing catchup on their reputation. The big three are losing huge money in part because of the extreme discounting they are having to do to move cars off the lot. That presents some opportunities for consumers, so don’t reject domestic cars out of hand when looking for a new car. Instead, research the reliability record of specific models and look for ones that are much better than the historical record. For example, the Ford Fusion has one of the best initial quality ratings, is one of the few new cars to not have a single major recall, and it’s bult on the Mazda6 platform. But the Mazda6 is thousands of dollars more, and the Fusion is often available with rebates and incentives that don’t exist for the Mazda6.

Have you actually driven both of these vehicles, though? The Mazda6 drives like a dream while the Fusion is like a cardboard box with the drawing of a dream on it. Somewhere deep inside supposedly there is a Mazda6, but I would rather pay the extra to drive the real deal.

Remember when you could “mix and match” when you wanted a car? Want the bigger engine, but not the heated seats, auto-defrost mirrors, etc? Nope! Can’t have it.

You can have Package A, which is a bare bones minimum car, Package B, which is minimum plus crap you don’t need, or Model C which is everything including the kitchen sink and tax preparation software for a huge price tag.

There’s no in between anymore. I don’t need heated seats, a glove box refridgerator, or a chilled cup holder, but do need more power. Nope. Can’t have it.