The bit about the raised seal missing from Hawaiian documents seems to be the current favorite peg for the WONJCTs to hang their hat on. I remember, though, from my days as a passport agent, that Hawaiian vital certificates didn’t have raised seals. They had a special watermark that resulted in a copy of the document having the word “VOID” appearing on the copy. As the Snopes link posted above shows, it’s a bunch of hooey from “self-appointed experts.”
Monty, Obama’s certificate that was examined by FactCheck.org does have a raised seal:
http://www.factcheck.org/UploadedFiles/birth_certificate_1.jpg
That’s from their article at http://factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html
Yes, but he could be impeached for any reason the Congress chose, right now.
Congress could impeach and remove him from office based on the argument that “he’s not native born”, with zero supporting evidence because it’s a simple matter of meeting the vote threshold for impeachment in the House followed by getting enough votes in the Senate for removal.
Impeachment isn’t a criminal trial, and likewise there could be 100% verifiable truth that all the evidence showing Obama was born in Hawaii was fabricated and he actually was born in Kenya, and it still wouldn’t lead to an automatic impeachment. There is no such thing as automatic impeachment and additionally the Congress could easily just decide not to impeach.
The thing the birthers fail to realize is the argument is irrelevant.
The US Constitution says “natural born citizen,” what this means has never been decided. But scholars think what it mean is you are a citizen without taking out any “papers” to do so.
Mr Obama has always functioned as a citizen of the USA and has never taken out any papers to achieve this. Thus prevailing opinion is whether he was born in the USA or not, he STILL is a citizen from the day he was born.
He got this through his mother. Mr Obama has always met every other citizenship test, from getting a passport to voting and has never taken out any naturalization papers to do so.
So the birthers are wasting their time trying to prove something that is almost certain to make no difference even if it were found to be true.
Thanks, Curt! It’s still a silly “argument” on the birthers’ part.
Scorn and ridicule I heartily agree with, and I gave the birther plenty of it. Facts that everyone else on the Board were giving, though, went right through one ear and out the other.
It’s not truth or facts that can be used in an argument with birthers. As mentioned in the OP, birthers don’t understand concepts like counterfactual. They don’t understand concepts like truth or facts. But there is one thing that birthers do understand, however badly - logic.
They cannot deny logic because logic is predicated in their own argument!
What’s wrong with the birther’s argument? Since no birthers are in this thread (although you are welcome to participate in this thread) I will answer the question. Truth and facts. The only thing that is not wrong with the birther’s argument is logic.
It’s not that we have facts on our side; it is that their logic can be turned against them.
See the argument I had with the birther. The link is in the OP. See, if you can, that the birther, who cannot deny the logic, must admit the conclusion.
Hell, even Sarah Palin is saying there are better things to focus on. Yet another sign of the apocalypse I tells ya
Yeah, that’s generally the case with CTers of any stripe. I have noticed a drop off of 9/11 Truther threads lately, and not so many Kennedy Assassination threads as well (and most of the other really loopy CTs as well…including Birther threads, at least in GD). All you can do is your best, and smack them as hard as you can. You can beat a dead horse in mid-stream, but you can’t check it’s teeth to see if it’s a decent gift, since you might drown. And making a Truther or Birther THINK is nearly impossible, so at least on a message board what you go for is to make the person look like a complete idiot and destroy them in every way possible so that maybe some lurker who doesn’t know that much about the subject but who hasn’t turned off his or her brain completely can at least make an informed decision as to whether to come into the light or crawl under a rock.
Keep the faith. 
-XT
“I actually like it, in the sense that—you got kids?” asked Rock. “Kids always act up the most before they go to sleep. And when I see the Tea Party and all this stuff, it actually feels like racism’s almost over. Because this is the last—this is the act up before the sleep. They’re going crazy. They’re insane. You want to get rid of them—and the next thing you know, they’re f—-ing knocked out. And that’s what’s going on in the country right now.”
Every single silly birthers argument has been answered seriously and thoroughly. It is the most scrutinized document on the planet. It is over. If you don’t believe he was born in Hawaii, then the problem is you. Every question, no matter how stupid and made up, has been answered.
It’s like any CT. It doesn’t matter how often or thoroughly you have answered the questions, people who are convinced by the CT are not subject (in the short term at least) to reason, logic or piles of facts that completely refute their idiotic faith in the CT. Basically, they are a lost cause. The reason to continue to refute it is to hopefully convince those on the fence or who maybe lean towards the CT out of ignorance to take a more in-depth look and reach a more logical conclusion.
-XT