Wheel of time, any good?

Cafe Society
41

Blugh.

The third or fourh time Simon went through his damned “I’m lost, I’m starving, I’m going insane, is that someone helping me? Is it all real or is it a dream?” schtick, I got disgusted and gave up.

Although I did like the “Here I am! I am Simon!” bit right before he gets plowed under a dragon.

For those who are skipping the WoT books because of this thread…

Don’t write it off just yet. The tenth book, Crossroads of Twilight was a total fucking disaster. Unless he lives in the totally insular land of asskissing fanboys, he has to know that he’s on notice.

Amazon has 2138 reviews of this book, most of them overwhelmingly negative. The ones that aren’t refer to the book as “A necessary evil”.

There are also some that are, obviously, total unrepentant bullshit. When people use a phrase like “This book really hooked me and it really tied up a lot of the loose threads”, it’s obviously bullshit. I defy anyone out there to name a single plot thread that was tied up, much less “a lot of the loose threads”.

So, he’s on notice, and he has GOT to be aware of it.

Wait for book 11 and see what the reviews say. Either he’ll turn it around or it’ll be one of the most impressive literary flameouts of our time.

-Joe, could easily add negative reviews 2139-8billionsomething

42

I’ve stayed away from this thread as long as I could. But here goes.

I am a rabid WoT fan. That’s the best face I can put on it. I take a day off work when I new book comes out. I’ll read anything that says Wheel of Time on the cover. I’m shameless.

There’s no question that the series has its low points. Dragging yourself through the middle of books 4, 7, and 10 is almost painful. But I still love it, and I’d even recommend it. WoT was the first fantasy I ever read, and now that I’m a huge fantasy fan, I can’t give up my allegiance, even if Crossroads nearly made me cry with frustration.

I say go ahead and read it. That may not sound terribly enthusiastic, but when I get excited about it, the hardcore anti-Jordan faction beats me down. :slight_smile: If you get bogged down, stop. Someday you’ll want to finish it. And maybe, just maybe, by that time, Jordan will have finished it.

43

So, can you defend CoT? I’m serious here.

Unlike a lot if people, I didn’t hate, whine, or even mind books 7-9. I thought the higest points of the series were the ends of books 3, 4, 5, and 6.

I really don’ t understand people who gave up half way through Lord of Chaos, but that’s their problem, not mine.

CoT, however, was to me totally inexcusable. The progress, the plot, the development could all have been dealt with in a pamphlet - they certainly didn’t deserve 600+ pages.

We had an entire chapter at one point with Rand negotiating with the Sea Folk, but dealing with the Seanchan (now the big baddies…because the Foresaken are now totally incompetent?) gets a one-line declaration from one of the characters.

-Joe, hoping you don’t whip out some “true fan” crap

44

Joe, I feel your pain.

There are obviously things I like about the series, otherwise I wouldn’t be sticking it out just out of stubborness. But I would seriously like to smack Jordan upside the head with the hardcover of CoT. That was the biggest disappointment in the whole series.

[SPOILER] Can anyone explain what the hell the end was about? Why did Egwene need to turn that chain into unbreakable cuendillar? And how could she and the general and others be so stupid as to think they would not have Aes Sedai stationed around the city to watch for channelling and prepared to act instantly, and why would she not have her Aes Sedai nearby for backup? It was just stupid. Yes, I know the characters are human and make mistakes but this is what makes it so hard to empathize with them when they keep doing stupid things. It wasn’t a heat of the moment action, it was obviously something they planned out, yet they could not see the big holes in the plan?

And talk about stupid, how can no one tell that there more to Halima than what “she” appears to be. And why do they trust her around their Amyrlin?
[/SPOILER]

In reading the series it was looking like he was going to concentrate on one forsaken per book, which didn’t seem like such a bad idea. Then they started getting resurrected, then whole books would go by without them or without them interacting with anyone but each other. The subplots got more and more complicated and now their are so many of them and so many characters I wonder how even Jordan can keep them straight.

45

Joe, I’m definitely not defending CoT. It had its moments, but those moment could easily have been interspersed with just a little plot advancement. As far as I’m concerned the best that can be said for CoT is that it got a lot of the boring crap out of the way so maybe Knife of Dreams will be of Dragon Reborn caliber. (I try to avoid true fan crap when I can.) :slight_smile:

And for Tiramisu,

I always thought the reason Egwene decided to cuendillar the harbor chains is because in the process, the chains would become fused and immovable. The plan effectively isolates Tar Valon. The Tower had been lowering the chains for ships carrying essential supplies, but now they can’t even do that. As to why she thought nobody in a city full of channelers was going to notice, you’ve got me.

46

HAHAHAHA!!! That’s a fantastic summary. But you forgot the Warders’ unsettling cloaks, and the Aes Sedai agelessness. :slight_smile:

Yes, it does get old sometimes, but I guess I just view it as an amusing quirk of the writing, and not a flaw.

Here’s another odd one: Watch for Jordan’s “women issues”. Once you start noticing them, you won’t be able to stop. The two themes that seem to keep cropping up are:

  1. Women whipping, beating, birching or strapping each other, usually in the nude, occaisionally tied up, and sometimes upon request. (This one is completely cross-cultural. The Seanchan, the Aes Sedai, The Aiel, everybody loves lesbian S&M, apparently).

  2. Objects “dangling between breasts” or “nestled in bosoms.” Rings on chains, necklaces, ter’angreals, wedding knives… you name it, it’s hanging there.

Hack writing or fascinating glimpse at the author’s psyche. You decide. :slight_smile:

47

Tiramisu

No siege of Tar Valon has ever been successful because the Harbors have never been blocked. Thus the idea of turning the Harbor chains to cuendillar. This is the reason she had those who could practicing the weave (the funds gained from selling the merchandise created being a secondary benefit) Through an amazing series of co-incidences (im guessing Halima) those who were best at using the weave all turn up dead. This meant Egwene had to do it. She couldn’t take back up, because that would mean letting the Sitters in exile know what she was up to. They would have been able to put a kibosh on the plan due to that old rule about ‘The Amyrlin seat not putting herself in danger’

That’s how I understood it anyways

48

Plus, he’s a Nazi. Don’t forget that.

49

Spoilers are going to be here, and everyone will just have to deal with that. The books like a year and a half old, so you’ve been warned.

And warned again - spoilers!

Final warning - I’m interested to see this thread taking off, and the fact of the matter is that some people have given this terrible book 5 Star reviews on Amazon!

Honestly, I guess I was just so far gone at the end of that book that while I remember Egwene getting captured on a boat, I didn’t think about why she’d want to Cuendillar the chains.

I do remember thinking that the Good Guys were going to Cuendillar a chain, but I kind of figured that it was their own chain they were going to do it to. Put out the chain, block the river and, well, it’s not like anyone can do anything about it except come out and manually detatch the chain…semi-suicidally, obviously.

Then again, the chain got done in Storm Of Swords a couple years before CoT came out, so it’s not a terribly original idea either way.

Turning Tar Valon’s chain to Cuendillar doesn’t seem like it would make the chain immobile, but then again, we are talking about a mythical substance after all. So, maybe it would become indestructible and rigid once it got channeled at.

Why she didn’t think anyone would notice it (I seem to remember it involves a HUGE amount of channeling for a LONG time) , why she didn’t bring, oh, I don’t know, an ARMY with her, or even a couple dozen sisters, I have no idea. Plot convenience or character stupidity - you pick one.

As for the channelers showing up dead, I think it’s pretty bluntly said that Halima is whacking people one at a time and having quite a bit of fun doing it.

You pick it - character stupidity or plot device. I’ll even throw Jordan a bone and say that it could be nearly constant use of Saidin Compulsion on pretty much everyone who starts to show suspicion. Isn’t she also torturing Sheriam to make her more pliable?

Finally, when it comes to keeping track of characters and subplots (remember that there’s three difference characters named something like Diagon, Diagian, and Diagion)…I don’t think he can. I think he’s gotten confused and lost. Fact of the matter is, characters need to be killed or written out of the story so he can get ahold again of those that remain. Instead if he kills them he resurrects them, or he just never kills them…and then he adds more characters! No! Bad Jordan!

As a big fan of breasts (though not necessarily always a fan of big breasts :o ), and someone who tends to get involved with women who like spankings, you can bet I’ve noticed. I’m kind of indifferent to them, actually, but a satisfied customer always comes back for more, as my dear old pappy always used to say.

-Joe, ooh la la

50

Someone recommended this series to me when it was only up to three books, so I read them all. When the fourth book came out, I read the first three books again before reading the fourth. When the fifth book came out, I read the first four again before reading the fifth. For those of you keeping track at home, that’s

The Eye of the World: 7 times
The Great Hunt: 7 times
The Dragon Reborn: 7 times
The Shadow Rising: 6 times
The Fires of Heaven: 5 times
Lord of Chaos: 4 times
A Crown of Swords: 3 times
The Path of Daggers: 2 times
Winter’s Heart: 1 time
Crossroads of Twilight: not so much
Fleshed out New Spring: nope

And I’m not picking up another damn book in this series until he’s done. I’m only 35, I figure I have time.

Merijeek, you had me laughing my ass off.

[hijack] I’ve been itching to read this GRRM “Fire & Ice” series, what with the rave reviews and all, but I don’t want to get caught in another “book limbo”. Can someone tell me if it’s just supposed to be four books, and when the last one is due to come out?[/hijack]

51

Huh? Care to elaborate?

52

Awesome!

If writing is a glimpse at an author’s psyche, then Jordan has nothing on Goodkind.
As far as recommendations, anything by Glen Cook.

53

Nope. It will be at least six books, maybe seven. No one is really sure when the fourth book will be out, because Martin hasn’t finished writing it yet. Best guess is sometime next year.

I really like the series, and feel that it advances along much quicker than WOT, but if you hate waiting for the next book in a series, it’s going to be awhile before this one is done.

54

I’ve really liked them. They’re very intricate (but not complex), the characters grow, make mistakes, realize their mistakes, learn from their mistakes, and grow some more.

Some don’ t get a chance to learn from their mistakes, if you know what I mean.

Still, I read the books in March, was delighted to find out that book four was due in April (according to Amazon’s site), and that’s obviously nowhere near correct. As far as I know with the book, it’s been in limbo some time.

However, I don’t know when the series is slated to end. With the number of things up in the air that haven’t even done anything but move behind the scenes (Dany, the Others, the Priest and the Red Lady, some things I can’t think of because the room I’m in and currently configuring has a teacher cleaning his shoes with paint thinner…) that I can’t imagine the books ending with four. Maybe five, if Martin isn’t trying to milk this thing like a Jersey Gurensey.

[Vague possible speculation spoiler]
I still think that Tyrion and Jon are going to be the saviors of the world. They’ve both been shit on all their lives for things beyond their control, they’re friends, and they’re about to be reunited at The Wall. The Wall is where the Others will be visiting soon, so…

[Serious spoiler]
The Red Wedding was quite possibly the most evil and infuriating thing I’ve ever read. At the end of book three, Stannis proved why he is, truly, the one who deserves the crown - which means that he’s probably going to get whacked really soon.

[Spoilers end]

Oh, and for some reason it’s not “Fire and Ice” but “Song of Ice and Fire”. Totally counterintuitive to me, too. Ice is a sword, no idea what Fire is. Then again, the glaciers are made of ice, too, so…

-Joe, loves Martin’s books as well even though he’d never heard of them before March or so

55

“The Song of Ice and Fire” is probably a prophecy or something similar, though we know pretty much nothing about what it says. While in the House of the Undying, Dany has a vision of her brother Rhaegar, who is talking to his wife (I forget her name). His wife asks if he’ll compose a song for their newly born son and he replies (paraphrased): “He has a song. He is the prince who was promised and his song is the song of ice and fire.” It hasn’t been mentioned again, but “the prince who was promised” was mentioned once more, when Maester Aemon talks to Melisandre at the Wall. In reponse to her talk about a war Aemon says something like “It is the War for the Dawn you speak of, but where is the prince who was promised?”.

As you can probably tell, I’m way too into this series.

56

Okay…

I’m trying to remember who the son is - did he disappear? Isn’t that the son who had his brains bashed out when he was an infant?

I’m not so good at remember what happened to the dragon people. If you think about it, though, that’ll explain the fire part of the song. The ice part might be the wall, then.

-Joe

57

In a larger sense, “Song of Ice and Fire” refers to the series’ meta-plot, which is slowly becoming clear. There seem to be two major forces in Martin’s world - the Ice, which is represented by the Others and their ilk, and the Fire, which seems to be connected to the dragons, to Asshai and - perhaps - to Melissandre. In between them lie humanity.

There’s little doubt that the Ice is malevolent; we’re not sure yet about the Fire.

I’m glad you asked. Each of these elements of Jordan’s books might seem innocuous, independently, but together they led to some disturbing conclusions:

  1. The brave race of desert warriors, fiercest fighters in the land, and actually tall, blonde and Nordic. Unlike most desert warriors I’m famliar with.

  2. The stories contain a militant group whose members wear long, flowing white robes. While they are portrayed as overzealous an pig-headed, the enemy they seek actually exists - they’re merely looking in the wrong places. They’re
    misguided, not evil.

  3. Every peddler the heroes encounter is not only evil but evil and pathetic. In medieval times, peddlers were a common Jewish vocation, and in much antisemitic literature, peddler=Jew.

  4. The main hero has two flags. The first one is your standard-issue dragon banner… but the second is much more problematic. It shows a black and white circle on a bright red field, and the circle contains a stylized version of a classic Eastern religious symbol. Sound familiar?

58

Yeah, he’s the one who died as a baby during the sack of King’s Landing. So, if the “song of ice and fire” is a prophecy, it may be one that Rheagar misinterpreted. Or it may simply be false. The crones prophecized that Dany’s son would be the stallion that mounts the world, but that didn’t happen either.

59

BTW, Dany’s vision was of Aegon the Conquerer, not of Raehgar. She was confused by the resemblance.

60

Hmm. That’s an interesting idea. I’ll have to take a look at the passage again, but I think I’m going to have to disagree. The woman Dany saw was blonde like Rhaegar’s wife. From what I remember of Aegon, he had two wives, and both of them were his sisters, so they probably had the distinctive Targaryen look (silverish hair).