Wheel of time, any good?

Cafe Society
61

They were displaced 3000 years ago. You could look at them as tall, blonde, and Nordic. I always thought of them as Nordic and Celtic, personally.

If you say so. You could also say they represent a completely direct parallel and call them the Inquisition, too. They operate openly, not secretly. They’re a militia, not a secret society. Also, they wear white cloaks, not “long, flowing white robes”. If you also factor in the Questioners, it’s an even more direct parallel with the Inquisition.

If you say they’re not evil…well, they don’t really do anything good, do they? They torture and kill the innocent, intimidate everyone they come against. Yet they’re convinced they’re doing ‘God’s work’.

Either way, if you want to do your best to claim the Whitecloaks are Nazis…maybe you can find a spot where they’re actually portrayed in a positive light? Let’s say two instances. Ball is in your court.

Hadnan Kadere wasn’t pathetic, just evil. Padan Fain wasn’t pathetic (until he had his brain pasteurized by the Dark One), just evil. I’m sorry to say that we haven’t run into any bankers, lawyers, or doctors, so I can’t comment on those, since any of those we were to encounter would obviously have to be Jews too.

Care to name any other peddlers? I have a pretty good recall on books I’ve read, but I honestly can’t think of a single one.

Next, maybe, you’ll draw a parallel between the Illuminators (secretive, family-oriented) with the Mafia or something?

You’re still flailing in the dark. The single most major theme of these books is the conflict between men and women. Male and female. YIN AND YANG. Remove the circles from inside the black and white sperm and you have…the hero’s symbol. The red background is incidental.

-Joe, doesn’t like Woody Allen, must be a Nazi

62

Okay, maybe someone will consider this a spoiler, but it’s really a WAG.

[spoliler, kids]

Is it at all possible for John Snow to be the one in the prophecy?

-Joe

63

:dubious: Well, it’s one interpretation, but I think it’s a far cry from proof. And I generally like to have proof before calling someone a Nazi.

Would you prefer they had dark hair and brown skin? Would that somehow be less racist? It’s a fantasy world, not earth. (Or at least, not modern day earth. Given the clues regarding the turning of the wheel, it may be Earth of a different age.) There are the noble mountain warriors holding back the hordes of evil that have “slanted eyes.” And the seafaring traders are black. so?

I’d say they’re misguided and evil for the most part. You really think the Whitecloaks are painted in anything resembling a good light? It’s not Birth of a Nation, here.

Now that’s stretching, I think. Perhaps it’s because I am Jewish, but peddler doesn’t say Jew to me, it says peddler. There’s much made of the Cairhenin as “Tree-killers”. Is he an anti-logging greenpeace activist too?

Besides, it’s a pretty small sample space. Padan Fain, sure (he’s even got a big nose), but Lanfear posed as a peddler… evil yes. pathetic? not really. Hadnan Kadere, I barely remember. Evil again though, agreed. Sooo… 3? In a series with hundreds of characters? (Or am I missing some important ones?)

So, it has nothing to do with the unity of the ancient Aes Sedai, and the “balance” theme throughout the books? (Men/women, saidin/saidar, Dark One/Light…) I think Jordan just took a convenient, well-known symbol and spun it in an interesting way (by splitting it into the dragons’ fang and white flame of Tar Valon.)

Thanks for the answer, it’s an interesting take, but I hope you don’t mind if I dont’ buy a bit of it.

64

The point is, heaven forbid that the fiercest fighters in the world be dark-skinned.

They still are trying to fight Shaitan, even though they’re going at it the long way. Just like the KKK is wasting their time atacking blacks and Catholics.

And it’s been a long time since I’ve read the book, so I can’t remeber many instances. I do recall a cavalry charge at the end of book 2, and Elayne’s half-brothe whatshisname was pretty heroic.

Two peddlers, two bad guys. That’s 100%. And by pathetic, I mean that they didn’t fight fair, face-to-face like the cooler baddies; they were more sneaky types.

Look, I told you the evidence’s strength is in the cumulative.

Yeah, and the swastika is an ancient symbol of good fortune. Pull the other one, it’s got bells on it. Black, white, red - those colors only mean one thing.

Look, I’m only being semi-serious here. Mainly I’m just venting my frustration.

65

Except that his mother died from complications from childbirth, right after his uncle killed his father.

66

A penguin in a blender?

Going back to Egwene and Halima and no one being suspicious. Egwene basically seems suspicious of everyone, yet not that suspicious of Halima, even though she knows she’s likely a spy for one of the Sitters (I forget which one sent her). She gets these terrible headaches that only Halima can help, yet often she doesn’t have them when she’s far away from her and sometimes they pop up as soon as Halima is in close proximity. Halima’s been missing whenever someone turned up dead. Etc., etc. It just seems for a group of people who have all these worries about whom to trust, is someone Black Ajah or Forsaken or a spy for Elaida or just furthering their own agenda, they seem to overlook someone’s suspicious behavior right under their nose. Correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t there a point where Egwene, Elayne and Nynaeve were all suspicious of each other? They can suspect a best friend or someone they grew up with but not be more cautious around a total stranger?

It’s just that Jordan seems to think some things through to minute painful detail, yet he leaves big holes in other areas that just make the characters look stupid.

67

Oh christ, this is just like the clones from Attack of the Clones. There it was a “them beaners is multiplying so fast” load of pseud-racist bullshit, and here it’s the same thing. Pick an ethnic group, and I can turn it into something racist.

So they’re well-intentioned. If I spend all my time burning at the stake any random Muslims I can get ahold of (to protect America from terrorists, naturally), am I a good guy or a bad guy? After all, I’m doing it for alllll the right reasons…

Elayne’s brother is a fucking sociopath. Anyone who has read the series knows this. As for the charge at the end of book two, it was a suicide charge against hopeless odds just so they wouldn’t have to admit to failure. Maybe they’re actually Japanese?

Yeah. the only skinny innkeeps we see are also evil. Maybe Jordan has a thing against skinny people?

Two characters out of a cast across EIGHT THOUSAND pages? This is beyond feeble.

A pile of weak speculation doesn’t equal evidence.

What are you talking about?

As for the colors, you’re right, it only means One Thing

-Joe

68

How certain are we of this? I’m a little vague on the details, but I thought Ned (and possibly Robert?) was the only person who knew for certain who she was?

-Joe

69

I’m surprised only one person has come close to mentioning another good series.

The books of (dare I say it?)…

The Black Company - By Glen Cook :eek:

See, that wasn’t too bad, was it?

The first three are the best fantasy books I’ve ever read, if a bit exasperating at times. The fourth ties up a loose thread. The next couple are vaguely interesting but somewhat boring. Soon 'tho, Mr. Cook goes Stark, RAVING, MAD and writes what is, quite possibly, the WORST book in the history of the English speaking (and writing) world.
He eventually makes a not-quite-complete recovery and finally finishes off the story in a satifactory, if not overly enjoyable, manner.

70

I got pretty fed up with the series after the last book. Prior to that, the taint being cleansed was pretty damn nifty, and I thought “finally, he’s back on track!”

Stupid, stupid me.

I loved the series. Now I’m moving towards love’s true opposite: Indifference.

71

Heh heh. You said “taint”.

Seriously though, I’m right there with you.

72

I’m absolutely certain Robert had no idea. If the king had known who Jon’s mother was - and even more importantly, who his father was - he would have definitely done something about it. What, I have no idea.

On anothe note, it seems as though my “Robert Jordan is a Nazi” meme isn’t getting much traction here on the SDMB. Pity. It would serve him right for stringing me along for seven books.

It’s mainly the flag, which seriously bugged me when I first read about it. And no, the Syrian flag is not an alternative, as the shape is wrong, and it contains the color green (just like every other Arab flag, incidentally - it’s a symbol of Arab nationalism). Face it, there has only been one flag in recent history with a black and white circle on a red field.

73

Dude - I don’t think you’re convincing anyone. Just let it go, man.

74

Hey, I’m just glad no one invoked Godwin against me.

(OTOH, now that the idea’s in your head, how easy will it be to get it out?)

75

Hey, I’m convinced. I’m always up for another good reason to hate on Robert Jordan.

76

With an argument that feeble? Pretty easy.

-Joe, planning a similar argument where he tries to illustrate that the Pope is, in fact, not Catholic.

77

But does he shit in the woods?

78

First of all, clarification. Martin’s series will run for at least six books, possibly seven. He said this himself. Besides which, he always appears to underestimate the number of pages necessary to hold the plot he envisions, so it may grow even longer. Wait and see.

And for those interested in such things, there’s a parody of the Sword of Truth series currently running in the webcomic “Bruno the Bandit”. It starts here:
http://www.brunothebandit.com/w/20040628.html

79

Exactly how I feel. I started reading the books when I was about 13-ish, back when I might not have noticed what is (in retrospect) pretty weak characterization as long as the plot was good. And the plot was pretty good for a few books, but I just can’t deal with the godawful boredom of reading hundreds of pages with nothing happening. The cleansing of the source was pretty exciting, I admit - or it would have if it had happened about three books earlier; by the time I got there I felt like it was too little, too late.

The problem is that what little action the books contain is always to introduce new plot lines, rather than wrapping any up. That single event feels like the only plot that has ended since the series started. Meanwhile the layers of ‘intrigue’ (I use this term lightly, as none of it’s been intriguing, and most of the mystery is just from sheer incomprehensibility) multiply, characters never freaking die, the protagonist is the chosen figure of three (!) different cultures, his childhood sweetheart is still leading that frickin’ rebellion, and there are so many damn names to remember that I can’t even recall which of the main characters are married anymore.

I don’t know if the series could have an end at this point, and I can’t imagine any end taking less than at least three more books - given that the situation with the Tower in Exile is unresolved, the Seanchan are still doing whatever it is they do, the Aiel are still hating on each other, the Sea Folk seem poised to do something important at any time, and the Wheel of Time guidebook released several years ago is still holding the threat of another major landmass with its own culture over our heads. Even the small things never get resolved - Halima and the other various darkfriends lurking around, Mat’s army doodad, various mysterious strangers like the one evil guy that Perrin sees in his dreams . . .

The climaxes of the books from probably book four onward all felt like contrivances to wrap up the thousand page tome - they were battles with no significance in the end and usually only resolving some minor plot point introduced in the same book. And meanwhile I’m supposed to remember hundreds of different names, what Ajah or royal family they belong to, which evil character is controlling their actions, and what role they play in the political intrigue of the moment.

I’ve decided that when the next book comes out in paperback, I’ll get around to buying it and CoT, and any of the prequel novels that are out in paperback, and from now on just avoid them until there’s enough new ones out to feel a little less disappointed. Maybe it’ll end in another ten volumes or so; I’d still really like to see the ending. That’s the annoying part.

And to prospective readers (including whoever it was above who was considering reading the first few): don’t. As novels, the books don’t stand on their own merits; they are pieces of a rather sub-par epic, and I can’t imagine reading the first few being even slightly satisfying. They aren’t individual works, and so either you’ll like the series enough to get sucked into it (and feel all used and empty afterwards) or you’ll just end up giving it up on a really dissatisfying note, since nothing will have ended.

80

The first three are absolutely outstanding. What a great cast of bad guys and not quite so bad guys (mostly because one of them is narrating). Good guys need not apply. I still think Cook has about the best characters in fantasy. At least he did with the first Black Company books, the Garrett (spelling?) series, and an odd single novel of his that I read.

I do agree about the Black Company series going downhill, but I still looked forward to the new ones.

In other news, the Jordan is a Nazi thing is falling beyond flat with me too.