Wheel of Time vs. Song of Ice and Fire

I am 1/3 of the way done with book 3 of the WOT series. I was a huge ASOIAF fan, and a friend suggested I try these books as well. I wanted to start a thread to compare/contrast the books. I would appreciate it if major plot points were put in spoiler boxes.

I think that WOT is superior in creating a cohesive story line (at least right now) . . . ASOIAF has about 20 different locations/plots at this point, whereas WOT has 1-3. I lso think there is a more coherent mythology and a clear central struggle in WOT. In addition, I can clearly see the influences of Jordan’s work on GRRM.

However, I think ASOIAF is overall the better series (again this is with me having read about 1/5 of WOT). I think the characters in ASOIAF are much, much richer, and the dialog far better (the WOT people always sound stiff and formal). Also ASOIAF has swearing and sex, which is always awesome.

Thoughts?

ASOIAF is significantly better in nearly every way. For example I think that the clear central struggle in Wheel of Time is a drawback.

WOT is a pretty standard epic fantasy, albeit of a higher quality than Terry Goodkind or Terry Brooks. ASOIAF is sort of a critique of the genre, it tries to subvert a lot of the tropes common in fantasy.

Yeah there really is no comparison between the two. You are not very far along in WoT, the quality drops like a rock.

:eek: :eek: :eek:

Hah! Count again! WOT’s gotta be over 200 by the end of book 13.
Oh, I see you haven’t even gotten halfway thru The Dragon Reborn. You may want to hold off on any pronouncements on what WOT does and doesn’t mean until you’ve slogged thru books 6-10 and tried to integrate them into your worldview. Fortunately the decent writing picks up again about book 11.

Hmmm. Well, honestly I am having trouble getting through The Dragon Reborn. It just seems like a lot of time is spent on . . . nothing. For example This whole plot with the three girls in the White Tower and trying to find the Black Ajah . . . it’s taken up about 30% of the book and approximately NOTHING has actually happened. Also the romance is really, really awkward.

I think I will need to take a bit of a break from the WOT books.

If you think Dragon Reborn is a slog, your patience will be sorely tested in the books to come.

The only reason I kept reading those books was out of a stubborn desire to know what happens to Mat. I’ve ceased caring about anyone else in the series.

How is that different from the first book? I read the first 200 pages of book #1, of which 180 pages were spent describing outfits and scenery.

Well I guess that one of the differences is that in the first book, for most of it at least, there is a clear goal get to Tar Valon and they hit landmarks along the way.

By the time I got to the third books, while there are some proximal goals and an ultimate battle to be waged at the end, the characters take their sweet time achieving the proximal goals and the significance of the proximal goals isn’t clear.

Although truly I think its biggest failing is how poorly characterized everyone is. Most of the characters are one-dimensional and the women in particular are awkward and unrealistic. All the female characters basically blush every time they think of a cute boy and are super chummy with each other even though they are all in love with the same dude. The dialog is also very unrealistic and formal.

Also, why do all the teenage boys REFUSE to engage in any naughty thoughts? It’s like every time one of them notices a woman is attractive, he immediately diverts his attention to something else.

Peering into other corners of the internet, it seems pretty universal that ASOIAF is considered superior to WOT. I didn’t mean for this to be a “let’s shit on WOT” thread but I guess that’s what it’s turning into :slight_smile:

Save yourself some serious brain-bleeding and stop there. I wish I had.

Haven’t read SoIaF yet, so can’t speak to it.

After lurking more than one thread on WOT here over the years, I do understand the criticism of it.

But I don’t agree.

I love the entire series, but, then, it’s really the only non-comicbook I’ve read in 2 decades, so my opinion is not worth much. Life caught up with me around book ten, and I haven’t read any of it since; when the series wraps, I plan to start all over from the beginning and read the entire thing.

A Song of Ice and Fire: any info on it, from those who have read it? # of books, brief plot synopsis, etc? Thanks.

WOT is an enormous ripoff amalgam of Dune and Lord of the Rings, with some really poor writing and a huge need for an editor thrown in.

Yea, I realize all fantasy is a rip-off of LOTR to some extent, but I was kind of blown away by how blatantly the first WOT book mimicked Tolkein. Almost every character in the former has a close counterpart in the latter. It was bizarre. I almost wonder if it didn’t start off as a “rewrite your favorite book” writing exercise for the author that they extended and got published.

Of course, in LOTR they’re trying to get to Mt Doom, while in WOT its Mt Dhoom, so I guess they’re not totally the same.

I think book 10 is the one in which the plot literally isn’t advanced one iota. You picked a good stopping point. WoT is good compared to other works of epic fiction. That’s generally damning with faint praise though. It’s pretty formulaic, the characterization is thin, and the plot is often very slow. It’s still a fun read though, mostly. Except Crossroads of Twilight, fuck that book.

Five books so far with a plan for 7 total. Most people think the two series are going to have more in common than the genre; GRRM is probably going to die before it’s finish.

A plot synopsis isn’t really possible. WoT is basically your standard “good vs evil” plot. A Song of Ice and Fire is a bit more complicated. It’s mostly a medieval political drama. There are a bunch of noble houses, lurking mystical baddies, exiled royalty and lots of people getting stabbed in the face.

I actually think the first 3-4 books of WOT are pretty good. There is a reasonably satisfying conclusion to the third book IIRC so it is a good place to stop if your patience is waning.

I have to give Wheel of Time the nod because of its backstory: the Age of Legends, thousands of years before the books start, being a highly technologically-advanced society using the One Power as its, well, power source, with the Aes Sedai as engineers and technicians - then the collapse from allowing the Sealed Evil in a Can access to the world, centuries of alternating civilization and dark ages - all that’s just incredibly cool.

Have you ever read Brooks’ “The Sword of Shannara”?

That was also a very painfully blatant Tolkien rip-off.

Congratulations, you appear to have grasped the essence of the series. For your reward, you can stop now.

Honestly, I only managed to get through four books of WoT. After that, I declared that I would only read the fifth if someone I trusted were to vouch that every character from the first four books died horribly in it. To put that in perspective, I enjoyed the Shannara books, despite their derivative nature and assorted other silliness.

I know I’m an outlier but I really enjoyed most of WOT and couldn’t stand ASOIAF. I’ve read every WOT book and am excited about the last one and about half way through book three I just couldn’t take anymore of how bad it was.
I enjoy the characters for the most part and while the series did drag hard there for about 4 books. I always enjoyed the characters and their reactions. The world feels larger than any other series I’ve ever read with the different ethnic spins and I wish it could have been explored more thoroughly. Jordan is overly descriptive and liked giving his characters tics but for me they are comforting not annoying and I know that is nowhere near the case for everyone.
To contrast I can’t think of a single thing I enjoyed about ASOIAF and between killing characters and lags between publishing none of the characters were memorable enough to stick in my mind from book to book.
I really want to sit down and read the WOT from start to finish one of these days but between grad school and work I just can’t come up with that much free time. Once I graduate that will probably be my graduation present. Of course I started this series when I was in 7th grade and I’m wrapping it up in up 18 years later while getting my MBA.

I am very fond of the WoT series, but happily admit to Song being a superior series. But despite outwardly being similar, that’s actually a very shallow comparison and pretty much stops at ‘Fantasy epic’.

I think, WoT is almost a Young adult book, where as Song is very much pitched at Adults.

WoT is a much more ‘classic’ good vs evil, naive country people grow into epic superheroes, assisted by powerful people, to take on the big bad kind of deal. Parceled up with that of course is some well worn cliches and tropes seen throughout the genre. However, despite recognising that there remain some characters to cheer for, generally speaking it is crystal clear who has the white hats and who wears the black hats, and mainly the white hats are sparkling snowy white, and the black ones are purest pitch black.

I really enjoy the rich world Jordan created though, the history of the world, the wheel turning concept I enjoyed. I really like the whole one power thing, and how traditions are subverted and mis-interpreted over time. The sword fights between masters I particularly enjoyed, I can’t recall having come across that style of describing swordfights before, and the names of the forms rattled off, really evoked a hollywoodesque epic fight to me.

Mechanically though the writing and pacing varies between solid to diabolical. Personally I think books 1 though 7ish are OK, aside from some Jordan tropes (mentioned below) but 8-10 are just tripe, that could easily and should have been compressed into a single volume. The plot advancement is just so damn slow. But it’s funny even then I stuck with it. I’d invested the time to read 7 volumes, I was going to stick with it. :smack:

The other distracting and annoying thing, is what I suspect was Jordan’s excuse for character quirks or actual, you know, characterisation. That’s the endless smoothing of skirts, tugging of braids, tugging of the forelock, Matt the skirt chaser always thinking he’s bad with woman, etc, etc. The endless description of fashion and clothes, but on that specific point, I actually cut him some slack, because, call me a heretic but I found LOTR just as bad and harder to read in his descriptive passages, maybe it’s just more acceptable because he wasted pages on describing outdoorsy scenes, rather than Jordan spending a paragraph on describing the colour of a skirt
Song on the other hand is labeled a fantasy epic, and it has the trappings, but it is not the classic good v evil, journey type series. The white hats are mostly pretty muddy, the black hats are mostly far from darkest night. It is clear that the series borrows largely from real life, where ‘shit happens’. As someone has already mentioned, it is more gritty political drama than fantasy epic.

It has it’s own problems at times too. There are pacing issues at time, the whole Danerys plot has slowed to a crawl at times. And there are some GRRM tropes for certain characters that show up as well. Although on a whole GRRM is vastly superior at creating the illusion of an actual person, rather than a cardboard cut out.

I personally find it a little annoying when a major character dies ‘off screen’, I don’t mind them dying, that’s actually one thing I like about the series, but I’d like to ‘see’ how it happens, not just a reference to it later.

You can almost sum up the difference as LOTR-esque fantasy epic, versus grim and gritty drama.

While LoTR is definitely a big influence on most if not all modern fantasy, I really don’t think that you can make such a blanket statement. LoTR is quite often the first epic fantasy that many people read, so they judge everything in relation to it. But it’s not the only fantasy theme.