True–given that we know for a fact that Arkham only holds the Joker for as long as the Joker wants to be held (and Batman and Gordon know this–they’ve explicitly discussed this) and given that the Joker kills hundreds of people every time he escapes, the laws of whatever state Gotham is in are broken.
There’s no real-world parallel to this because in the real world, prison breaks are rare. In DC/Marvel, they happen daily or at least weekly and the Joker is ALWAYS able to be free whenever he wants.
Any state that didn’t sanction a “Shoot on sight” order for the Joker is a state that has abrogated it’s duty to protect it’s citizens.
I’m wondering if that’s what’s behind some of these universe wide re-boots. There comes a point where the fictional universe is so cluttered with supers, villains, and (in many cases) decades of mass murder by the villains it’s impossible for the worlds the villains and supers inhabit to maintain any rational coherence even as fictional universes. The Wildstorm Universe did some philosophical “what ifs” on this thesis with the aforementioned Captain Atom series and so did the Ross “Kingdom” series.
I don’t think so–I think it’s just a nice fringe benefit.
The only rational way to fix this problem (the state abrogating it’s duty and the non-killing hero being a psycho for not protecting the citizens*–and not killing the Joker who will ALWAYS be free to kill hundreds whenever he wants is insane) is an either/or choice:
Change the villains–turn 'em back into '60s criminals. They’re thrill-seekers and crooks–people may die, but they’re few and far between.
or
Don’t give any bad-guy the “Escape whenever I want to” ability – they have to be broken out by an external source and that has to happen rarely.
*The only reason Batman or any other comic book vigilante is morally acceptable (and this was lost in the '80s-'90s and only regained when Waid/Johns/Busiek and a few others revolted) is because they put “Protect civilians” first. Capturing bad-guys is an extension of “protecting the innocent”, not a goal in and of itself. Batman, except for the mostly-dreadful period between (roughly) Dark Knight and Infinite Crisis, if given a choice betwen: Catch the criminal or save an innocent person from dying would unhesitatingly choose the latter option.
Ditto. Unless it was, like, Frank Miller’s psycho Batman, I can’t think of a single instance where Batman put catching a criminal ahead of saving someone’s life. And I grew up reading Batman comics in the 90’s (which were largely awesome before Grant Morrison got his hands on the character in JLA).
Heck, he gave Jean Paul Valley a huge speech about that very subject while punching him in the face (JPV had recently allowed a civilian to die by choosing to instead pursue the villain Amygdala).
Erik Larsen’s Savage Dragon is really over-the-top superhero action–but there can be consequences, & characters age & die. The book is actually about the kids of the previous Dragon now. Marvel & DC had a chance to go that way in the 1970’s, but then they decided to have all the characters be unaging, & it hamstrings the work.
Just wanted to mention that Captain America once found himself in a peacetime adventure where – minus his shield – he needed to use lethal force or let innocents die; he reluctantly killed the would-be murderer, and promptly turned himself over to the authorities.
Nitpick: Belasco is a sorcerer who has taken on demonic traits, not one of those Satan-guys.
Given the setting, there could also be #3: Some sort of cosmic being or “destiny itself” is manipulating matters so that the status quo is maintained. Apparently coincidental events will always tend to ensure that neither the heroes or villains are ever permanently killed or imprisoned.
I don’t dispute you, Der, but (A) pretty much all of Marvel’s Satan cut-outs have some similar deviation from the Biblical Satan (Mephisto claimed at one point to be an extra-terrestrial, Thog and Dormammu are straight-up extra-dimensionals, etc.) and (B) within the context of the story (Punisher 39-40), he claimed to be (and functioned as) Satan.
My own, personal editorial policy (as opposed to the official editorial policy) is that, in any given on-going Batman story, only two to three of the Joker’s previous escapes are in continuity at any given time. Which two or three can change with the needs of the current story line, or remain unspecified if none are directly referenced by the current story. It’s the only way the comic universe makes any sort of sense.
Batman is a vigilante. By definition he is operating outside of the law. A lot of the stuff he does below killing is also the responsibility of the state. We can really only get legality involved if we assume Batman is unofficially state sanctioned.
I like the idea of a Batman who can’t kill a lot better than one who thinks it’s the State’s responsibility.
I can now see in my mind’s eye an Onion article: “Arkham Asylum’s 32nd director promises ‘no more escapes’”, and a postscript at the bottom says that just at press time the new director was killed by the Joker in his latest escape.
The civilians killed in the crossfire thing was the backstory to one of the supporting characters in Marvel UK’s Captain Britain comic. Inspector Dai Thomas was a grumpy policeman who thought superheroes were a menace to society for this very reason. He formed this view after seeing his wife crushed in some rubble, caused by two random super beings who never even notice her accident and take their battle elsewhere, obvlious.
In the comic, he takes a special interest in tracking down Captain Britain because a similar accident happens to a young lad when Captain Britain first meets Meggan (his future girlfriend, at this time a werewolf creature) in an old abandoned factory or warehouse and a fight breaks out between them. during the scuffle, some metal scaffolding collapses and kills a teenage boy in front of his friends.
This was the early 1980’s, I think and Jamie Delano doing the writing.
Let’s not forget the Chainsaw Vigilante from The Tick – he started going after costumed heroes because of the destruction they wrought and the crazy bastards they brought to town. He helped out during the Christmas special, when all were menaced by a scheming wreath and his army of vengeful conifers.
