When did dinosaurs become controversial among biblical literalists?

Lately it seems that even dinosaurs are becoming controversial with biblical literalists, creationists and young earthers. Is this a new development?

http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/overheads/pages/oh20030808_187.asp

I’m aware that evolution has been controversial basically since it was put down on paper by Darwin, and that human evolution from apes has always been a hot button topic(Scopes trial etc). But I can’t remember any christian objecting to the very idea of dinosaurs, is this really a recent trend?

A few hundred years ago, neither Christians nor anyone else knew about dinosaurs. Is that what you mean by recent?

:slight_smile:

Actually I meant that in the 80s and 90s and most of the 00s I don’t remember dinosaurs being controversial, at least compared to how they are viewed now.

I’ll admit I may just be mistaken, which was why I was asking.

Your link (which I admittedly didn’t thoroughly investigate) doesn’t seem to do that. It does advance the notion that dinosaurs and humans existed together.

If the Paluxy footprints are any guide, no, it is not recent. However, specific memes do go in and out of fashion, and you may just happen to be reading more dino-denying stuff than you did before.

We have to start with this picture, apparently posted at and taken down by Conservapedia, though it’s a joke. Even so, the current Conservapesia page on dinosaurs is very nearly at that level.

Dinosaurs were known pre-Darwin. Anything that scientists gave the name “great thunder lizard” to was going to get some attention. It took good ol’ American hype to raise dinosaurs to public awareness. The perpetrators were Edward Drinker Cope and Othniel Charles Marsh, who competed for decades in the last part of the 19th century to discover and display new dinosaur species. It’s called the Bone Wars. By the turn of the century every self-respecting natural history museum had a dinosaur skeleton. More importantly, dinosaurs had penetrated popular culture.

Dinosaurs were the greatest beasts ever, so in the bigger is better world of popular culture they were the ideal foe or mount. But that meant that humans had to be the ones fighting or riding them. Writers of early science fiction solved this by having dinosaurs somehow survive until the present day. So did Windsor McCay whose early animated cartoon Gertie the Dinosaur had her visiting the Washington Monument (object: luuuv; OK, not really). But comic strips soon realized that having dinosaurs and cavemen together was an even greater source of comedy. I’m not talking about the *Flintstones *but strips like the 1930s Alley Oop.

You might think that the comic association hurts the reality. It does, for some people. But for the rest it sets the dinosaur up as the pre-eminent image of age and tells them that if they can take down this image the rest of the edifice will follow. If you’re a true believer and you need to have the earth created 6000 years ago then no argument is as powerful as proving that humans lived at the same time as dinosaurs. Q.E.D.

Christians have never objected to the very idea of dinosaurs. That’s a misunderstanding of what is being claimed. Young Earth Creationists object to the postulated antiquity of dinosaurs.

There have been three great waves of fundamentalism in this country. The first rose in the 19th Century, long before Darwin. The second was the revival in the 1910s and 1920s, which also produced Prohibition. (George McCready Price wrote a series of books that used the Deluge, Noah’s Flood, to explain all of geology, starting in 1906. His The New Geology, the ancestor of most of today’s YEC tracts, appeared in 1923.) The third is the current one, which has been building for 40 years. The first two also insisted on Biblical literalism, so that the world couldn’t be older than around 6000 years. While scientists knew that dinosaurs were far more ancient than humans, their overall understanding of all the processes was creaky. In a country where fewer than half the population graduated high school scientific knowledge was minimal at best. Some champions of YEC must have touted the coexistence of man and dinosaur but it wasn’t a topic that excited the average person.

Today’s world is deluged (ha: good one) with science. Every science builds off and reinforces the truths of all the others. Every discipline has an advanced understanding of how things happened and they all call for a several billion year old earth with 60 million years between dinosaurs and early humans, even “ape-men.” The Young Earth has the same force as the Flat Earth.

Belief works differently. If you need to believe in a religious tenet that the world is only 6000 years old, then you rearrange reality to make it so. Mixing dinosaurs and humans therefore becomes not a symbol of your stupidity but of your deep and unvarying faith. It’s symbolism, and symbols are stronger than steel.

Science will never change that. Faith will change gradually so that believers no longer have to adhere to a 6000 year-old Earth. That’s already happening. The lines in the sand keep being redrawn. One day a different uncrossable line will signify the depth of one’s faith and dinosaurs won’t be an issue any more.

Good post, Exapno.

In case anyone doesn’t know, YEC = “young Earth creationism”

Conservapedia is a hoot!

From http://conservapedia.com/Dinosaur :

Man that must have been a BIG ark!

I thought the dinosaurs died in the flood (according to YEC). When did they start going on the ark?

I am really not sure what you mean about dinosaurs “becoming controversial” amongst Biblical literalists. The former existence of species that are now extinct, the best known examples of which are dinosaurs, has been a problem for literalist interpretations of the Bible ever since firm evidence for their existence became available in the 18th and early 19th centuries. However, that minority of Christians who determinedly held to Biblical literalism long ago developed “theories” (laughable theories to any outsider to the cult, but convincing to them) to account for dinosaur fossils, and it has been a long time since many creationists seriously held the view that dinosaurs never really existed. The idea that fossils are false evidence planted by the Devil went out of fashion a long time ago. These days, they generally hold that dinosaurs once co-existed with humans, and went extinct relatively recently, probably at the time of Noah’s flood, but perhaps even more recently than that.

In one sense, dinosaurs have always been controversial amongst creationists (in that, even before Darwin’s time, they found themselves at odds with the relevant science); in another sense, their existence has not been particularly controversial amongst creationists for a long time (for at least a century, I think).

Apart, perhaps, from the issue of exactly when they went extinct, I do not think there is really much controversy about dinosaurs amongst YECs, and I do not see any evidence of such controversy on the page you link to. That page is concerned with rhetorical strategy, not doctrine. It is saying that evolutionists are using dinosaurs as a rhetorical tool to teach children their point of view, and that creationists need to develop a strategy to counter this.

If you mean that dinosaurs became a problem for creationists, rather than controversial, that began when non-creationists first used the age of dinosaurs as an argument against creationism. I don’t know when the first instance of that was, but I’ve only noticed it myself recently because I’ve been paying more attention to the debate in the last several years.

The idea of species dying due to the Flood has always been strongly rejected by many YEC. (It’s considered a somewhat childish explanation that species went extinct during the Flood.) God told Noah to save all the species and all the species were saved.

Note that they readily assign to the Flood the existence of many buried fossils, but that is not the same as saying that any given species died out completely during the Flood.

Now, post-Flood, there are major differing opinions as to what happened. Some allow species to have gone extinct while others are strongly opposed to this since that implies that God made a mistake in creating a species. The latter view was The Official Stance for most people ~200 years ago but has waned since clearly species have gone extinct within our lifetimes.

Man, you need to check the short video of “The Creation Adventure Team”

The devastating review by science writer Peter Hadfield, aka Potholer54 on that series was taken down in yet another attempt by creationists to abuse the copyright enforcement rules at Youtube.

Among the “points” they make nowadays are that many meat eating dinosaurs actually were vegetarian so humans had an easier time living at the same time the dinosaurs lived on the earth and dinosaurs just faded and became extinct.

In a different recent creationist video a “luminary” of creationism proposes seriously that dinosaurs faded and became extinct thanks in part to the small nostrils they had, as oxygen became less abundant in the atmosphere the small nostrils adaption to a rich oxygen environment became a disadvantage when less oxygen was present, so many dinosaurs had their lives shortened once the oxygen content lowered.

This “theory” also explains the “dragons” because their nostrils heated up and felt to humans as fire being breathed out. :smack::rolleyes:

[I’m not going to imagine it!!!]

And I wonder how Adam and Eve avoided being a tasty snack for a pair (!) of T. rexes, not to mention how they got them on the ark in the first place.

“Here, rexie, rexie, here’s a nice horsie for you to eat…”

I think the (relatively) recent wave of creationist dinosaur theories is mostly a response to the popularity of dinosaurs with kids, starting in the 70’s and 80’s and intensifying with Jurassic Park. Dinosaurs are an extremely dangerous gateway drug that can lead to interest in paleontology, geology, biology and natural history.

Only two of each species would have made it onto the ark. The rest … curtains, just like the people.

A young-earth creationist actually told me that he believed Noah took only baby dinosaurs on the Ark, so that’s how they all fit. :dubious:

Not that big

Prohibition in the United States was not born from a revival of fundamentalist religious thought.