We all know a vegetarian considers fish meat. But at the same time, the Catholic rules of abstinence from meat don’t consider fish as meat. Kosher regulations also hold to this classification, which suggests in ancient times people didn’t consider fish meat. When did this change in definition happen, and what was the reason?
Vegetarians don’t consider fish as meat. They consider fish as “animals”, which they were last I checked.
So, people who don’t want to eat animals for ethical reasons refuse to eat meat, poultry and fish. But they still know the differences in phyla between a calf and an achovie.
I don’t have much to add. I just wanted to point out that in Japan, “niku” (meat) specifically does not mean fish meat. If you pointed at a salmon fillet and asked, “Niku?”, they would unanimously shake their head no. I believe it does include poultry though (I’m actually not sure, now that I think about it.)
I always figured that it came about because it was easier to call their primary substenance non-meat, than to practice real vegetarianism. But Europe is a bit bigger of an island, so I’m not sure.
In Korea also fish is not considered meat. Oddly enough, evidently, neither is ham–don’t ask me how they could possibly have gotten that one.
When I go to a restaurant, I have to be very specific and ensure the cooking staff understands that my meal cannot have “meat, ham, fish, or shellfish” in it. Yes, I do have to include shellfish in that list. If I leave that one minor point out, I can easily end up spending time in a local hospital.
I even have to do that routine when I order 비빔밥/bibimbab (vegetable rice; sometimes referred to as vegetarian rice).
I’m also incredibly happy when I inform the staff I’m vegetarian and they ask me which kind I am (ovo-lacto). That tells me they’ll not only pay attention to my request but are familiar with preparing such a meal.
I hear you, Monty…
The “vegetal” sandwiches in Spain usually have lettuce, tomato, onion, tuna and hard-boiled egg. I’d really like to know when did eggs and tunafish start growing on trees!
Since we’re having fun with languages, in Spanish “poultry” is meat, fish is fish and shellfish is shellfish. My English class had a hard time wrapping our heads around the concept of “shell-fish”, the Spanish word isn’t any kind of derivative of the word for fish.
Meat is by definition the flesh of animals, but neither fish nor birds were originally regarded as “animals”. Many people even today think of “animals” as land-living four-legged creatures only; never mind what a zoologist would say. The modern definition of “animal” is only a couple of centuries old I believe. And even today you can’t buy fish at the butcher’s.
In the UK, the Vegetarian Society defines a vegetarian as someone who eats neither flesh, fish nor fowl…making the distinction between animals (flesh), fish and fowl (poultry).
On a recent visit to China, I was given a card by the tour guide to take with me to restaurants as I’m a vegetarian - it said that I don’t eat the above, and included dog and cat on the list.
In ancient times? You mean in Judaic culture and Christian culture, fish did not equal meat. I’d like to see some cites that said every culture or even most cultures thought fish were not the flesh of an animal. I’m not being snarky, I genuinely would like to know if this extends beyond those two cultures.
That being said, even in Hindu culture which is vegetarian and sometimes vegan, people who lived on rivers or on the coast generally eat fish. But it’s still understood they’re animals.
I was under the impression that this was the old definition of “beast”. So you’re saying that animal and beast were once entirely synonymous?
I’m going to go off and look for a cite, but in the meantime - the Concise Oxford Dictionary gives as one definition of animal, “a mammal, as opposed to a fish, bird, or insect”. Which is close, if not identical, to what I was saying.
“Animal” derives from the Latin “animalis” meaning “having breath”, so I wouldn’t expect it to apply to fish, which don’t have “breath” in the usual sense of the word.
From the Online Etymology Dictionary;
(Bolding mine.) Which strongly suggests that “animal” was originally a synonym for “beast”.
What about people that eat insects? They are obviously animals but are they flesh? I reckon vegans wouldn’t eat them.
You’re mixing up a lot of questions and definitions here.
– As has been made very clear to me on these boards, there is no generally accepted definition of “vegetarian.”
– There is also not a single, universal definition of “meat.”
– The definition of “meat” and the definition of “vegetarian” have little to do with each other.
– A server at a Korean restaurant once insisted to me that “crabstix” is vegetarian, because it’s not really crab. (Well, okay, but it is pollock fish, so that makes it verboten to my vegetarian pal here.)
– In India, serious South Indian vegetarians avoid all flesh (land, air, and sea), eggs, garlic, and onions (because in Indian cuisine, garlic and onions are associated with the preparation of “meat” dishes), but they do include a lot of dairy (milk, butter, yogurt) in their diets. Jains also avoid eating anything else that grows in the ground as opposed to above it (in case they accidentally eat any really small animals).
– Vegans, the serious vegetarians of the West, avoid all dairy, but do eat onions and garlic.
A hijack, but a very interesting point about niku 肉. As I’m sure you’re aware, in Japanese the word is a fair analogue to the English term “meat,” as can be seen from words like kaniku 果肉 (literally “fruit meat”). In a restaurant though, as you point out, it is much more likely to be confined in meaning to beef, chicken, pork and lamb, rather than fish or seafood.
InstallLSC:
Kosher regulations regarding meat are specifically in regard to an injunction to not cook it “in its mother’s milk.” Therefore, those regulations only apply to the flesh of animals which lactate, i.e., mammals. Even birds are not really included in this; Kosher-observant Jews only refrain from mixing fowl meat with milk because the Rabbis decreed so, as it’s too easy to confuse fowl meat with mammal meat, and one might cook a piece of mammal meat in milk, mistakenly thinking it to be fowl meat. Fish flesh is sufficiently different from mammal flesh that such confusion is impossible, so the Rabbis did not add fish to the prohibition.
A Japanese told me that squirrels are not considered meat, nor are whales. They were both eaten during the period up to the Meiji revolution in, I think, 1867, that ended to taboo on eating meat. Squirrels were classified as birds (and still are) and whales as fish. Nowadays not only is meat eaten, it is sometimes eaten raw I was served both raw horsemeat and raw chicken. The horsemeat was quite ordinary tasting, but the chicken–which was very fresh and sweet smelling–was delicious.
Well of course not, because then they’d be cannibals.
Oh, you mean vegans wouldn’t eat insects…right. In fact, some go so far as not to eat honey, because it is an animal/insect product.
Hmm…When I head “vegetarian” used generically, I generally assume ovo-lacto vegetarian. The only vegetarians I personally know who don’t eat eggs are vegans, and they specifically announce themselves as such. Fish would certainly be off-limits to both groups.
Am I wrong to assume that in common parlance, when somebody says they’re vegetarian, that includes a prohibition against eggs?
I meant to say, am I wrong to assume that eggs are OK for people who simply refer to themselves as “vegetarian”? I don’t think I’ve ever encountered a problem before, but Nava’s post suggests that eggs are off-limits.
And, generally, you’d be right. But the hard-core Vegans are trying to get “vegetarian” (without qualifiers) = “vegan”. Words change, especially those which have a heavy socio-political load. Currently, “vegetarian” means vegan, ovo-lacto, and even fruitarian- years ago, it also covered pescarians.
Back some 50 years ago, some dude who ate fish as his only “meat” would call himself a “vegetarian” and not get called on it. No longer.
Personally, I am willing to drop “pescatarian” from the list of “types of vegetarians” as long as some Vegan doesn’t get all holy-joe about it.
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acsenray**; some “crab” is a soy product.