When did French start counting that way?

[Rucksinator]

[I know nothing about this subject except what I’ve read in this thread.]
Forgive me if I’m pointing out the obvious, but it seems logical to me that the decimal system developed and became entrenched in a time when there was no need to count above around 50. (Kind of like how we didn’t need words like “billion” or “trillion” or “googol” until fairly recently.)
Then the vingesimal system became popular shortly before the time when people had a need to count higher than around 50. Am I totally off-base with this? And if not, what changed? The size of a herd of whatever that someone could reasonably handle? The number of people that a town could support? What need for higher numbers allowed the vingesimal system to take root, but not with the entrenched numbers up to 59?

[Ludovic]

@Rucksinator

Am I totally off-base with this?

I see what you did there.

[Rucksinator]

@Ludovic

I see what you did there.

I didn’t mean to. It actually took me a while to get what you were referring to.

[Senegoid]

@leahcim

But the point here is that allegedly, French does not descend solely from Latin – Gaulish makes a definite contribution to the new language.

Imagine the scenario:

[ol]
[li]Gauls, hanging out, speaking Gaulish, counting by 20s.[/li][li]Romans conquer the Gauls, speaking Latin, counting in 10s.[/li][li]Romans do some serious administration of Gaul, so Latin becomes the language of the powerful and important.[/li][li]< . . . snip . . . >[/li][/ol]

And, as we all know, there was one little Gaulish village that the Romans under Julius Caesar were never able to conquer. So the 20-ish counting system survived through them, never to die out completely.

[naita]

@Hari_Seldon

Someone who actually knows can correct me, but my recollection of my brief stays in Denmark and that in 1970, people over 40 counted to 49 in a more or less normal way (neun og viersg, or 9 and 40) but suddenly 50 was halv tres (meaning halfway through the third, understood to the the third 20) then en og halv tres, do og halv trest, etc., all the way up to tres. Then up to neun og tres and then halv fiers (halfway through the fourth) up to hunderd. People under 40 had learned a new system in which, for example, 55 was femti fem (literally fifty five). I assume that that reform is now complete.

Sorry, this is all a dim memory and I may have most of the names off, but the essential idea is correct. I don’t know about the other Scandinavian countries.

Well you’re mixing Danish and German for the basic numbers or just misspelling stuff, but that’s the Danish way of counting and it’s thoroughly confusing for us other Scandinavians. I don’t know how much 55 = femtifem has caught on, but I know it’s become rare to call hundre fems.

[Skald_the_Rhymer]

@Chronos

Wait, translators? Do you mean to tell me that Jesus didn’t originally write those words in English?

You only think you’re joking. I could name at least Pentecostal ministers in Memphis who opine that. They’re both pushing 80, of course.

[ezgranet]

This article does a good job of explaining it: http://www.economist.com/node/21536656

[Itself]

@Dervorin

Then again, counting in Hindi goes “twenty-seven, twenty-eight, one-less-than-thirty, thirty, thirty-one”, so I shouldn’t really mock this.

English does something similar, in the reverse direction: ‘Eleven’ and ‘twelve’ derive from Proto-Germanic ‘ain-lif’ one-left and ‘twa-lif’ two-left. The rest of the cardinal numbers are regular enough, except that 13-19 (and compound number names containing them) use an older variant ‘-teen’ of ‘ten’.

[Dervorin]

@Itself

English does something similar, in the reverse direction: ‘Eleven’ and ‘twelve’ derive from Proto-Germanic ‘ain-lif’ one-left and ‘twa-lif’ two-left. The rest of the cardinal numbers are regular enough, except that 13-19 (and compound number names containing them) use an older variant ‘-teen’ of ‘ten’.

True, but counting in all languages that I’m familiar with is a bit screwy until 20, after which it grows up, becomes responsible and settles into a proper pattern. I wonder if there are any languages that have no quirks in the counting at all - entirely logical and derivable counting from 1 to any number.

[Orville_mogul]

@clairobscur

People would assume you’re Belgian/Swiss? It’s always hard to say what the “average” person knows, but I would guess that most Frenchmen, but not all of them, would know what those words mean.

Actually, I have definitely encountered Frenchmen who don’t recognise the Swiss decimal terms, or at least pretend not to. And the same in former French colonies in Africa.

Dervorin, your situation and mine have a certain symmetry. I am an American, with Indian in-laws, living in Suisse Romande. I had the same thoughts about Hindi and Swiss french counting and then saw your post…

[Malacandra]

@Dervorin

True, but counting in all languages that I’m familiar with is a bit screwy until 20, after which it grows up, becomes responsible and settles into a proper pattern. I wonder if there are any languages that have no quirks in the counting at all - entirely logical and derivable counting from 1 to any number.

Chinese.

[Dervorin]

@Malacandra

Chinese.

Hah! Question asked, question answered. See, now that’s a sensible counting system.

@Orville_mogul

Dervorin, your situation and mine have a certain symmetry. I am an American, with Indian in-laws, living in Suisse Romande. I had the same thoughts about Hindi and Swiss french counting and then saw your post…

Nice to have a brother (I assume brother, based on your name) in adversity! I’m Indian, with a Swiss SO - and if only I lived in America, the symmetry would be complete, and we could probably use this as the basis of a new theory of symmetrical quantum mechanics, but sadly, I live in the UK. So close to a Nobel, and yet so far…