I’m just sat here thinking…tribal cultures regularly cover up their genitali. But, as anyone who’s had a subsciption to National Geographic knows, they didn’t care that much about hiding their breasts.
When did we decide breasts were a part of offical nudity? And why?
I am going to take a stab at the OP and say that covering one’s “tits” isn’t a human species decision, it’s a religious/cultural decision. The cultures we see that don’t find it necessary to cover their top halves aren’t less civilized or “evolved” than the cultures that DO cover up, their culture just doesn’t see the human female breast in the same way.
I’d be curious to see references to the Old Testament and whether or not it says specifically that Eve covered her breasts after she ate The Apple or if people just decided later on that Adam and Eve’s body shame included her breasts.
FWIW, I’m gonna say about 15 minutes after they became a part of sex play.
In the historical European context? The Minoans (1000BC or whenever) are believed to have worn fashions that uncovered tits.
My guess is that the great coverup happened somewhere around or before 500 CE, when the Roman Empire converted to Christianity. As the Western Roman Empire slowly fell, Christianity, a male-dominated authoritarian religion from the middle east, throve. That religion would bring a middle-eastern cultural heritage of covering the body, which I suspect was originally utilitarian. It was unstable times, the risk of personal violence was high, and women were considered second-class citizens… I could see that also playing into cultural tendencies to cover up.
We could check this in a number of ways: did the Eastern Roman Empire also tend to cover up around 500 CE? Did Romans in pagan and republican times tend to cover up? Have there been middle-eastern cultures that did not cover up? How about other cultures in Europe and the Mediterranean basin?
In modern times, of course, there are minority subcultures like neo-pagans and nudists who uncover.
I’m no anthropologist but there is more than one tribal culture and I don’t think they have all gone bare-breasted.
I think that all three religions of the Book (did I do the capitalization correctly?) do have clauses about women dressing modestly, and the popularity of these religions probably has something to do with covering breasts. I do have to bring up the notable exception of 18th century French fashion, though, in which dresses were sometimes so decollete that the nipples showed.
As to the romans, at any time, they were no prudes. For example, art that today would be described as pornography has been found on a startling number of dining room walls. However, I’ve never heard of female fashion, (other then the kind worn in brothels) that did not cover the breast. Transparent fabrics were popular however…
AFAIK, among the aristocracy, the women did cover up, in public atleast. However, I don’t think anyone would have made a fuss if a peasant woman decided to breastfeed her baby on a public street.
I think it wasn’t just women covering their upper bodies - men did too. Modesty rules were to be fully covered, no matter what the gender.
What’s actually changed is that it’s become more acceptable for men to bare their chests in public places, than for women to do so.
In parts of pre-modern India, especially in the south, it seems to have been customary to wear a sari around the waist and perhaps with the end draped over the head, but not to cover the breasts.
As the OP notes, and as this 1919 article on nudity among Indian tribes confirms, female toplessness among tribal/traditional cultures is not particularly unusual. Even today, some older women in some rural/tribal areas of South India don’t bother with a sari blouse and are not particularly careful about keeping their breasts covered with the sari drape, suggesting that the notion of the “obscenity” of visible breasts isn’t a tradition of long standing in their culture. But apparently even some non-tribal/urban/literate/“civilized”/however you like to describe them cultures in medieval India didn’t think that bare breasts were obscene.
Well what about the fetishiation of the breast? Back in the twenties (that is the nineteen twenties) the flat chested look was POPULAR?!?! :eek: It wasn’t until Playboy made the breast over sexualized that they became very obscene.
I mean I’m a breast girl (am bi) but I still think our society, oversexualitizes breasts. I mean breasts are FUCKING ULITARIAN! They’re to feed babies!
During Roman times, prostitutes were not only allowed to walk around bare breasted, they were required to do so. I think this was so that they could be readily identified by potential customers in a way that was easily understood and that would allow women not so attired to avoid being solicited.
Not really. Female apes feed their babies perfectly well without the hypertrophied breasts found in female humans. The large breasts of female humans, not found in most other primates, are primarily a sexual signal. They are much larger than they need to be just to feed babies. Some have theorized that they are intended to mimic buttocks, and first developed as a sexual stimulus when humans began to copulate mainly front-to-front instead of doggie-style.
Ever since it became one of the seven words you can never say on TV ?
The Romans were more prudish about many things than were the earlier Etruscans. Their public baths featured nude mixed-sex bathing and the Romans were horrified by this at a time pre-Christianity.
If civilization can be defined as cultures with cities (as it should), then very few civilizations anywhere at any time featured bare-breasted adult women. While it’s tempting to accuse people of the Book for this (what an ugly phrase), I can’t think of any good evidence that says that they did any more than emphasize what was already a cultural standard.
I believe that the 16th century Italians (Venice, if I recall correctly) also had rules about this. Apparently the Church was concerned about homosexuality run amuck in the city. So to prevent the crossdressers from taking over the sex trade, prostitutes had to bare their breasts. The average woman in 16th century Venice kept at least her nipples covered, though, if not much else.
[QUOTE=SkiDemon]
Well what about the fetishiation of the breast? Back in the twenties (that is the nineteen twenties) the flat chested look was POPULAR?!?! :eek: It wasn’t until Playboy made the breast over sexualized that they became very obscene.
/QUOTE]
Cite?
Make that American TV. You can hear those words on British terrestrial TV all the time, after 9 o’clock in the evening (e.g. on Bo In The USA last Friday night, number 6 on the list featured about 6 times in 30 minutes). And you see tits regularly, too (ibid).
No. The breast was sexualized long before that. In fact, Desmond Morris thinks (and nobody I’ve heard doubts him on this) that it has been sexualized ever since we started walking on two legs.
And I remember seeing tits on terrestrial Brit TV as far back as 1976. It was an episode of ‘The Sweeny’.
Bloody FCC!
I know women here that wear a headscarf and veil, but think nothing of walking down the street topless. Its considered just about obscene to show your knees.
Every culture has its little quirks. It just happens that the one culture we pay most attention to sexualizes breast. The idea that breasts are sexualized by their very nature doesnt fly…men can be just as sensitive and they dont have to cover up. And to a skilled lover just about all of the body can be that important. Indeed, when you look at things like anient chinese sexualizing bound feet; that becomes apparant.