When does a kiss merit 1-4 years in jail? (Spanish soccer)

Great Debates
21

One way to view it from the athlete’s perspective is to imagine that a male coach kissed you like this after a win. You would probably be okay if the male coach hugged you vigorously and maybe even kissed you on the cheek (especially if you’re in Europe), but likely you would be offended if he grabbed your face and kissed you on the lips. If perhaps you had a really, really close relationship with the coach maybe you’d be okay with it, but if you’re just a random player and the coach kissed you on the lips, you’d probably be offended. And you might feel even more awkward if you knew the coach was attracted to men. In that case, you might wonder if he kissed you because he was caught up in the celebratory moment or because of sexual attraction. The way the coach kissed that athlete, I would say it was more of the latter than the former.

And in this case, it’s not even the player’s coach. It’s the president of the sporting organization. So it’s very likely that these two people had little to no relationship before this moment.

One thing that could be considered in this case it so see what sort of celebratory actions Luis has taken in the past, especially with male players. Did he have a lot of physical contact with them? Did he hug or kiss them? Are his celebratory reactions consistent no matter if it’s men or women players? If he has a habit of reacting this way in all circumstances, then perhaps it can be argued that it’s non-sexual in nature. But if he only reacts like this with women players, then it’s most likely sexual in nature.

22

It’s not possible in criminal law to detail tens of thousands or more of different situations; one can only list a limited number of categories. So the maximum punishment available is for the most extreme crime in that category and one relies on the judges and prosecution to reduce punishments for lesser crimes. In actuality he might be punished with probation and a small fine. Frankly I think he has more to fear from the civil courts if the player sues–in some courts he could get a big judgement against him.

23

I do.

Yep. Something of the sort.

Your sample of women are likely also from the same or similar cultural backgrounds as yourself, leading to a certain level of bias.

These days I sometimes interact with some people from a cultural background mandating strict gender separation, to the exact that even a married couple will not touch each other in public. Not my culture, but when amongst them I wouldn’t even ask to shake hands with a man. I’ve also spent time with people who felt clothing of any sort was entirely optional - again, not my culture, either, but there you have it. Lots of different cultures and sub-cultures and they all have different rules for interacting with people.

When in doubt, don’t touch. And, like I said, if you’re in a position of authority don’t touch the subordinates.

Just to be clear, I don’t view this as a horrific transgression. Personally, I’d be fine with what we Americans would call probation for this (but more penalty if he does it again).

24

The wider public doesn’t always recognize sexual assault when it happens, as we’ve been socialized to see it as something else.

But the victims know.

25

The next time something goes really well in your courtroom, celebrate by grabbing your most senior female clerk (or equivalent staffer) by the head and kissing her hard on the mouth.

When she objects, tell her you are not asserting your dominance or seeking sexual gratification, you are simply celebrating. She should then accept your act and withdraw her complaints. Right?

“But this was a sporting event,” you will say.

Yes. But for the player, it was also her job and her place of employment.

So smack away on your staff and let us know how it goes.

26

He is quite clearly, in every photo, gripping her head in his hands securely. It WAS forced. That was a dominance hold, 100%.

Every woman recognizes it, and it reflects rather badly on any man who attempts deny it, to be honest.

It will help to have some context. These kind of sexual assaults have been much in news in Spain, where women struggle to get courts, men and society to NOT see ‘simple, short’ assaults as unimportant.

Recently a young woman was assaulted and the perpetrator excused from consequences because the assault lasted ‘less than 10 seconds!’

A man put his hand down her pants, and male society/justice said, basically, ‘so short a time, doesn’t count!’. Women were understandably outraged. Many young women posted clips of a hand on their breast for a full 10 secs. Just to make their point, it was a whole campaign and everything.

Spanish women are having their moment. They’ve suffered this shit a long, LONG time. They’ve more than earned it.

This man did this on national tv, in front of everybody, right after grabbing his crotch! When called out, he immediately denied it was non consensual and totally tried to gaslight the victim.

Because he is THAT secure that the patriarchy has his back. And, this being Spain, history would indicate, in the end, they probably will.

I hope they ruin him to be honest, so he never, ever works again. Women’s sports deserves to be free of predators, not rife with them, in the men who should to be on their side.

27

It has become politizised and complicated, but Mr. Rubiales’ original intention, it seems, judging by his character as it is protrayed in the media and by his previous actions, would be to exert dominance and to humiliate the player (Jenny Hermoso is her name).
The story is long and nasty, so I will gift a NYT article that summarizes the situation quite well, IMO: Here it is.

I would also like to link today’s article from the Neue Zürcher Zeitung (FTR: this is a very conservative newspaper, but not of the loony fringe):

The problem is that sexist abuse is endemic in Spanish Football bodies and the government does not have the power to intervene:

But the Spanish Government would only have been allowed to interfere in the autonomy of the sport if the Spanish sports administration court had classified Rubiales’ offenses as “very serious”. Last Friday, however, the jurists decided only on “serious” - and there is no clear majority for an internal vote of no confidence or impeachment proceedings.

So now it is Ms Hermoso’s only possible move to file a criminal complaint, as no steps will be taken otherwise. From the same article:

Spain’s top news of the week also included a criminal complaint filed by Hermoso against Rubiales with the Attorney General’s Office. On Friday, a Spanish prosecutor also filed charges of sexual assault and coercion.

So he will have to defend himself in court and may be sentenced to between 1 and 4 years. If the sentence is below 2 years, as it probably will be IMO because it would be his first sentence for that crime, he should be released on probation, but Ms Hermoso will have prevailed. She may also get damages awarded. Now a couple of pictures from the evening in question:



In the last picture the woman in red on the left is Spain’s Queen Leticia, which for some reason has been commented in Spain as making matters worse.

28

We don’t see American men celebrating with kisses like the Europeans do without reserve or ridicule.

But that’s between the men, keep women out of it especially coaches/owners and their players. It’s called respect and boundaries between the sexes. But was that celebratory kiss a malicious criminal act meh? And the guy grabbing his crotch, a rude gesture he’s a pig.

29

This was in Italy, for the record, not in Spain. But there is a similarly endemic macho-bullshit culture in both countries which is resisting all efforts at removal.

30

It’s fiction, but…

31

Thanks for the link. Required reading for anyone who wants to have an opinion on this incident, and the topic in general, I think. Rubiales is a scumbag and he deserves everything that will be coming to him, and more.

But even without this (important) context, you still don’t grab an employee by the fucking head and forcefully mash your mouth onto theirs.

32

Even though it’s a sports field, it’s also a workplace. If you were at work and one of the executives did that to you, would it be ok (asking generally, not any specific person here)?

33

Thanks for the link. This guy sounds like somewhat of a pig, and given the history of this team, he should have avoided ALL contact - including the hug. If this guy has previously been warned, then there ought to be progressive discipline. Maybe she should initiate a civil suit or a workplace complaint. My reaction is informed by my opinion that too much “sexual” activity has been criminalized. Obviously many people disagree with me - which is fine. Won’t ever affect me personally, as it is extremely unlikely I will ever kiss any women other than my wife, sisters, daughters, or granddaughters.

I’m curious about the photo of him carrying the player. Is that sexual assault? Is she unwilling?

I’m surprised that I’m the only person who has been on the receiving end of a kiss where the other person put their hands on the sides or back of my head and pulled me towards them. No, not anything I would ask for, but nothing sexual or traumatic. Obviously many people differ. It really surprises me that people view a relatively brief kiss on the lips - with or without the hands on the head - is a greater transgression that what appears to have been a more protracted hug in which the man was making contact with the woman’s breasts and midsection.

I’m personally not eager to hug or kiss co-workers or much of anyone else. In my work experience in decades past I’ve received unwelcome hugs and kisses several times from women - and NEVER initiated one myself. But I’ve also seen celebratory situations in which physical contact took place that would have been unacceptable just about anywhere else.

BTW - is anyone able to link the specific language of the applicable law? I’ve found commentary, but not the law itself. A lot of talk about rape, and the group aggression that contributed to the new law. To state the obvious, my opinion that this woman being kissed does not impress me as sexual assault certainly does not mean I favor women being raped. I feel equating the 2 is unfortunate.

34

I don’t think that workplace comparisons are useful since physical contact is so different in the workplace compared to sports. In the workplace, pretty much the only normal physical contact is an occasional handshake. But in sports, players are physical with other players constantly. It happens as part of the sport itself between competitors. It happens between players on their own team. Players get hit on the butt by their own teammates and by people in leaderships roles, like coaches. The level of physical contact is so much higher in sports compared to the workplace that you’d have to take that into consideration. There is an entirely different category of normal and typical physical contact in each sort of environment. Slapping someone on the butt at a work meeting may get you fired, but doing it in a football game is totally normal. Taking your shirt off at company-wide meeting will get you fired, but is perfectly fine in a packed sports stadium.

35

Well, she just won the World Cup, the biggest tournament in women’s football, so she is happy and smiles. That is the biggest possible achievement in that field, and a first for her personally and for Spain as a country. But I doubt she asked for it. So I will just say that it was unnecessary, I guess we can agree on that. And perhaps even stupid of him. But, according to what I read (and I have read a lot about him recently) completely in character. A public display of his alpha-male-ness, a power demonstration of braggadocio.
It seems relevant to me that after the victory in the final and before the medals were given the players celebrated on one side and the management/trainer/staff/Rubiales on another side of the pitch. The rift was very obvious, and it has a long history. I know who the underdog is here, and on whose side I am.
It is regretable that the biggest sporting achievement those women will probably attain in their lifes was marred by this “incident”, but on the other side, this was the only ocasion that could have this repercussions and consequences (if there are any in the end). If they manage to change Spanish football culture, curb nepotism and corruption and advance the rights of women in Spain and in sport that will be greater than the World Cup on the long run. Those women (and the ones that boycotted the national team and were not in Aus/NZ) have my respect and admiration.

36

Though I generally agree with much of what you say, I think that some paradigm shifts may be in order. And, notwithstanding that, when crossing genders and levels of power, I think that the workplace comparison is useful, if not protective, to all concerned.

37

Oh, dear! You mean that?

That is 30 articles long in Spanish legalese. And then there is the Criminal Code applicable for the violation of those laws… IANAL, but I can tell you it is full of “if… then”, “considering”, and whereas clauses. But it is considered to be among the most advanced or liberal laws for Equal Treatment of Genders in the world, which infuriates the more rancid right in Spain no end, one of the reasons Mr. Rubiales alluded to the “false feminism” in his defense during the speech where he stated he would not step down. A very clear dog whistle, and a sign of his wish to make the whole thing political in a cultural battle sense. Here is the complete speech in Spanish. The comments, btw, are depressing, as was to be expected.

38

Michael kissing Fredo like that (while holding his head very firmly) is obviously dominance behavior. It is not sexual in any erotic sense, but I’m pretty sure it’s not usual in Sicilian culture for male relatives to kiss like that. It strikes me as psychologically similar to a certain type of situational homosexuality observed in prison inmates - sexual abuse as dominance behavior.

Why do you frame these as alternatives? Sexual abuse often is dominance behavior. Here it certainly is - in front of a huge audience to show very publicly that he can.

39

This. Bravo for this lady who stood up to this asshole.

40

Rape culture is always worth fighting against