I don’t know anything about the 2 people involved, or the history of women’s soccer in Spain or elsewhere, but that behavior strikes me as far short of anything that ought to be called sexual assault or that ought to be considered criminal behavior.
I haven’t followed it closely, but it seems like a criminal act to me. A forceable and unwanted kiss is along the lines of a grope, or worse.
Whether he deserves the book thrown at him is a separate matter. The criminal law is designed for punishment and deterrent. I think deterrent is the relevant goal here, along some measure of punishments.
Don’t know how it’s defined in Spanish criminal law, but in common law, assault is “an intentional application of force to another person without that person’s consent”. The player in question has said she did not consent, so yes, an assault by that test.
It’s clearly of a sexual nature.
And, I’ve read that there are allegations that the upper authorities in the Spanish women’s soccer world, normally men, have abused their authority with women soccer players.
In that context, I can see the furor.
Would your reaction be different if he groped her breasts to celebrate the win?
I would think the court would look at this in the context of a celebration rather than as if it was an action between two random people. Many behaviors during winning celebrations could be considered assault, such as spraying someone with champagne, dumping a cooler of water on them, hugging them, grabbing them by the shoulders and shaking, slapping them on the butt, etc. Do that to someone on the street and you’ll get arrested, but they’re accepted behaviors after a win. I wouldn’t be surprised if kisses on the cheek are also common during these sorts of celebrations. The kiss on the lips crossed a line, but it seems like a lesser violation compared to kissing a random person on the street.
Have none of you ever engaged in sport - or other organized “team” activities? You’ve never seen people hug, kiss, slap butts following a victory or after a performance? Was the hug preceding the kiss OK, but the kiss was not?
I think it ridiculous to characterize that kiss in that context as “clearly sexual in nature.”
And yes, my reaction would be very different if he had groped her breasts. It is silly to equate a celebratory kiss with a breast grope.
If we are talking about unwanted kisses on the lips, I wonder about what the statute of limitations is and whether I have a cause of action against my aged aunts from back when I was a kid!
The biggest problem I see (aside from the kiss itself, of course) is that, as I pointed out in another recent thread, the coach insisted for a few days that it was consensual, and the player had to issue a public statement to the contrary.
True, I’ve seen those sort of things - between male teammates and coaches. And, I’ve never heard of any of those participants in those celebrations stating that they did not consent to those contacts.
I’ve never before seen it between the male, 40ish, head of the league, with a young 20ish female player, directly on the lips, with the female player stating she did not consent to a direct sexual contact.
Right. He’s in a position of authority over her. Quite different if a teammate did it. I’m not saying the guy should be locked up for 4 years as a sexual predator, but I would be happy if he suffered some consequences for his action.
Men in positions of power need to learn that they can’t kiss, grab em by the whatever, or otherwise do things to women that women don’t want. Women (and some men) have been quite clear about that for a few decades now. If a criminal prosecution of this guy helps get the point across, I’m all for it.
I have - but. It was between teammates , not between a player and a coach or official. And that means it generally wasn’t opposite gender and never involved someone in a position of power grabbing the back of the other person’s head and pulling it forward. And I also don’t recall seeing even two teammates kiss on the lips.
Tangentially, that’s definitely something of which there is greater awareness (at least in some parenting circles) nowadays. It’s not that kissing your aunts is bad - it’s that when you are taught from an early age that sometimes you have to kiss people to fulfill your social obligations then a bad precedent is set. The idea that your body is your own in all contexts, including completely innocent ones is something that’s really focused on nowadays because of the lessons it teaches (both about respecting others and understanding that it’s OK for you to demend that others respect you).
No, that is, and ought to be, considered “criminal behavior”, because that’s what “criminal behavior” looks like — what with the lack of consent and all.
Dinsdale, I am going to assume you have never in your life grabbed a woman’s head and kissed her on the lips without her consent. And I’m going to assume you haven’t done that because you know it’s wrong. Everyone knows it’s wrong. It’s unwanted intimate contact, whether you call it “sexual” or not. It’s so wrong, in fact, that it’s a crime here in the U.S. and apparently in Spain. It’s not the worst crime ever committed, but the attitude that allows does lead to the kind of thinking where more serious crimes can take place. (See, e.g., Trump in the dressing room)
I wouldn’t exactly equate an unwanted kiss with a breast grope - but what if he had done this to some stranger on the street? He’s not entitled to just assume the player would consent anymore than he can just assume a woman on the street would consent.
I do not want anyone to touch me in any way without my consent.
There are a few, very few, people in my life who essentially have on-going consent to do this. Relatives and a couple of friends I’ve known for a couple decades.
Absent that, even people I know, including co-workers, neighbors, and acquaintances should NOT be touching me in any way without OK’ing it first. This doesn’t have to be a big deal - holding your arms out to offer a hug allows the person the hug is offered to to either accept (step into the arms and return the hug) or move to some other thing. Likewise, when shaking hands one does not reach out and grab the other person’s appendage, one holds out one’s hand and allows the other party to accept or not.
In the culture I was raised in kissing is ALWAYS, without exception, an intimate act to be performed with relatives and not strangers/non-relatives. A kiss on the lips is ALWAYS sexual, no exceptions.
Therefore, someone who is NOT a relative (or at least a very, very good boyfriend/girlfriend, that is, intimate significant other) kissing me on the lips is NEVER something I’d consent to and forcing it on me would, yes, be a type of sexual aggression/assault. Not on the level of rape, but certainly on exactly the same level as someone grasping my breasts without consent. I’m sorry if you think that is “silly” but that’s how I was raised and that’s how it feels to me.
I realize that not all cultures are the same. Having on a couple of occasions interacted in cultural contexts where cheek-kissing is a common greeting has led to some awkwardness for me, and when in Rome I try to conform to Roman customs, but it uniformly leaves me feeling dirty and ashamed. Which I try very hard not to convey to the people for whom this is a warm and friendly greeting but I’m pretty sure some of the awkwardness comes through no matter how hard I try.
In my view, the fact the man was the coach for an athlete was no excuse. Especially if this occurs in a cultural context where a male coach kissing a male athlete on the lips would not be acceptable. That would just underscore that this was a male asserting male privileges on a female. (My opinion - I’m sure others may disagree). Nor would such conduct between two women make it somehow OK. Such interactions between players is a different matter. Back when I played team sports some girls were OK with the hugging-touchy-feely stuff and some of us weren’t - and it was never a big deal that some did and some didn’t and when you respect your teammates you also respect their boundaries.
Really, people in positions of authority should just not touch their subordinates unless it’s something like CPR or stopping bleeding or some other form of first aid. Regardless of gender(s) involved.
So all of you view the touching of lips significantly worse than the full-body hug that preceded it? Do you think it obvious that they guy initiated the kiss in a desire to derive sexual gratification? Or to exert his dominance?
I find the unanimity of responses curious, as my entirely non-scientific survey of 5 female relatives and friends (all of whom consider themselves - and I agree - strong feminists and supporters of women’s rights and women’s autonomy, and none of whom are overly touchy-feely) yielded responses entirely within the range of “are you serious?” to “that is ridiculous!” I find it curious when the reaction I see on-line is so different from what I encounter IRL.
What exactly did you ask your friends/relatives? You might get different answers if you ask just about the kiss vs mentioning the potential punishment. Also, did they see the video? Because for me at least, the pulling of her head made a big difference.
