When does mail become your property?

[Duckster]

Is it illegal to open another person’s mail, even if it’s mistakenly delivered to your address or mailbox?The answer is generally yes, if you recognize that the letter is not intended for you. If you’re caught opening someone else’s mail, the federal criminal consequences could be dire.

http://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter/2014/01/is-it-illegal-to-open-someone-elses-mail.html

**2nd Circuit said: **The courts of appeals agree that § 1708 covers mail that the Postal Service has accidentally delivered to an address other than the one on the envelope (misdelivered mail). However, there is a split among the circuits over whether § 1708 extends to mail that is delivered to the address on the envelope but to a person other than the specified recipient (misaddressed mail). The credit card statement in this case was addressed to Ms. Bosch at her prior address, an apartment then occupied by Coleman, and so falls into the category of misaddressed mail.[1] The Third and Fifth Circuits have ruled that § 1708 covers misdelivered, but not misaddressed, mail, on the theory that the authority of the Postal Service ends once the letter has been delivered to the address on the envelope. See United States v. Lavin, 567 F.2d 579, 583 (3d Cir.1977); United States v. Davis, 461 F.2d 83, 89-90 (5th Cir.1972). The Ninth Circuit has ruled that § 1708 covers misdelivered mail, but covers misaddressed mail only if a change of address form has been filed with the Postal Service by the intended recipient of the mail. See United States v. Anton, 547 F.2d 493, 495 & n. 2 (9th Cir.1976); United States v. Birnstihl, 441 F.2d 368, 369 (9th Cir.1971) (per curiam). Finally, the Seventh and Tenth Circuits have ruled, and the First Circuit has implicitly concluded, that § 1708 extends to both misdelivered and misaddressed mail. See United States v. Palmer, 864 F.2d 524, 527 (7th Cir. 1988); United States v. Douglas, 668 F.2d 459, 461 & n. 3 (10th Cir.1982); see also 86*86 United States v. Indelicato, 611 F.2d 376, 384 (1st Cir.1979).

US v. Coleman, 196 F. 3d 83 - Court of Appeals, 2nd Circuit 1999

[Joey_P]

@up_the_junction

What’s the problem with ‘Return to Sender’ and leaving it to the mail people to deal with?

Because after doing that for years and years and years at some point you say ‘the hell with it, they haven’t lived here in 3 years, I tossing all their mail now, clearly they’re not missing this stuff’.

For various reasons I did the ‘addressee not at address’ thing for a while. I’ll bet I wrote some version of that on over a hundred envelopes and it never made any difference.
The majority of these were for the people I bought my house from, they were really lazy about everything involved in moving out of a house. Luckily at this point it’s just junkmail.
But really, it probably over a year before important stuff stopped showing up and several years before non-junk mail stopped showing up for them.

[Melbourne]

@Joey_P

But really, it probably over a year before important stuff stopped showing up and several years before non-junk mail stopped showing up for them.

In Aus, there are certain classes of financial mail (superannuation?) where the bank/institution is /required/ to send notifications/statements to the “last known address”. It doesn’t matter what you say to them: they don’t hav authority to stop mailing or to stop addressing mail to that address.

[Joey_P]

@Melbourne

In Aus, there are certain classes of financial mail (superannuation?) where the bank/institution is /required/ to send notifications/statements to the “last known address”. It doesn’t matter what you say to them: they don’t hav authority to stop mailing or to stop addressing mail to that address.

I think the idea behind returning the mail is that it’ll prompt places like the bank, credit cards (and other ‘important’ things) to call you and ask you what’s going on and get you to update your address, therefore making it so you get less misaddressed ‘important’ mail.

But my point was that I don’t think the people that lived here before me actually updated their address with a lot of things. Just like they also left the house full of garbage that I had to get rid of and kept coming back for 2 months to pick the rest of their stuff up (until we put it all outside with a note to tell them they were done now kthxbai).

[bob_2]

Supplementary question.

I buy something on t’internet and it is posted to me. At what point does it become my property?

[Muffin]

There is a difference between possession and ownership. If something can be owned, then it is defined as property. Just because someone has possession of property does not mean that that person owns that particular property.

A letter is the property of the sender until it is received by the recipient, regardless of whoever has possession of it between it leaving the possession of the sender and being received by the recipient.

[Muffin]

@bob_2

Supplementary question.

I buy something on t’internet and it is posted to me. At what point does it become my property?

It becomes your property when you buy it.

If it gets lost or damaged during delivery, you are SOL unless contract specifies otherwise, or if there is a specific statute that governs you transaction.

[DrDeth]

@Muffin

It becomes your property when you buy it.

If it gets lost or damaged during delivery, you are SOL unless contract specifies otherwise, or if there is a specific statute that governs you transaction.

Wrong. The seller owns it until delivered. If lost or stolen or never shipped it is the sellers/shipper responsibility to replace or refund. *

It is the buyers responsibility to get payment to the seller. Thus if you send cash and it gets lost, that is on you.

• There is a exception, FOB.

[x-ray_vision]

@DrDeth

Wrong. The seller owns it until delivered. If lost or stolen or never shipped it is the sellers/shipper responsibility to replace or refund. *

Cite?

[DrDeth]

@x-ray_vision

Cite?

Rights and Duties of the Seller | Sale of Goods | Areas of Law | Law Library...

https://sol.du.ac.in/mod/book/view.php?id=645&chapterid=395

[x-ray_vision]

Where on each webpage is your claim backed up? Are those regarding US law? They seem to be regarding Indian law.

[Pantastic]

@up_the_junction

What’s the problem with ‘Return to Sender’ and leaving it to the mail people to deal with?

It gets old after years of doing it. I had an ex- who lived with me for a while and I kept getting collections stuff for her, at first I’d do the ‘return to sender’ thing but some of them would keep coming. Eventually I would open the collections notes, call the collections place, and tell them they had the wrong address and that I had no forwarding address for her. That finally stopped them.

Sure, I technically violated the law by opening the mail, but no one actually cares about that technical violation of the law. And if you’re really worried about possibly violating the law, just throw it all away. Then you haven’t opened any mail that wasn’t addressed to you, so you’re not doing anything illegal.

[x-ray_vision]

@Pantastic

And if you’re really worried about possibly violating the law, just throw it all away. Then you haven’t opened any mail that wasn’t addressed to you, so you’re not doing anything illegal.

Not so clear cut.

18 U.S. Code § 1702 - Obstruction of correspondence

Whoever takes any letter, postal card, or package out of any post office or any authorized depository for mail matter, or from any letter or mail carrier, or which has been in any post office or authorized depository, or in the custody of any letter or mail carrier, before it has been delivered to the person to whom it was directed, with design to obstruct the correspondence, or to pry into the business or secrets of another, or opens, secretes, embezzles, or destroys the same, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.

18 U.S. Code § 1702 - Obstruction of correspondence

The courts of appeals agree that § 1708 covers mail that the Postal Service has accidentally delivered to an address other than the one on the envelope (misdelivered mail). However, there is a split among the circuits over whether § 1708 extends to mail that is delivered to the address on the envelope but to a person other than the specified recipient (misaddressed mail). The credit card statement in this case was addressed to Ms. Bosch at her prior address, an apartment then occupied by Coleman, and so falls into the category of misaddressed mail.[1] The Third and Fifth Circuits have ruled that § 1708 covers misdelivered, but not misaddressed, mail, on the theory that the authority of the Postal Service ends once the letter has been delivered to the address on the envelope. See United States v. Lavin, 567 F.2d 579, 583 (3d Cir.1977); United States v. Davis, 461 F.2d 83, 89-90 (5th Cir.1972). The Ninth Circuit has ruled that § 1708 covers misdelivered mail, but covers misaddressed mail only if a change of address form has been filed with the Postal Service by the intended recipient of the mail. See United States v. Anton, 547 F.2d 493, 495 & n. 2 (9th Cir.1976); United States v. Birnstihl, 441 F.2d 368, 369 (9th Cir.1971) (per curiam). Finally, the Seventh and Tenth Circuits have ruled, and the First Circuit has implicitly concluded, that § 1708 extends to both misdelivered and misaddressed mail. See United States v. Palmer, 864 F.2d 524, 527 (7th Cir. 1988); United States v. Douglas, 668 F.2d 459, 461 & n. 3 (10th Cir.1982); see also 86*86 United States v. Indelicato, 611 F.2d 376, 384 (1st Cir.1979).

https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=17811917603889300733&hl=en&as_sdt=400002&as_vis=1&kqfp=16416556292721133715&kql=180&kqpfp=13756658536134008829#kq

[Muffin]

I think Dr. Deth is correct and I was wrong. Have a boo at the UCC, which is a model for laws on this sort of thing the USA. § 2-401. Passing of Title; Reservation for Security; Limited Application of This Section. | Uniform Commercial Code | US Law | LII / Legal Information Institute

In the USA it comes down to whether the contract included sending the item to the purchaser or delivering the item to the purchaser. If sending, then title passes at the time of shipping. If delivering, title passes at time of delivery. The question posed was “posted to me”, which usually would imply specific rather than general delivery, so title would transfer at time of delivery. I mistakenly equated posted with sent. My apologies.

Thanks for the correction, Dr. Deth.

[DrDeth]

@muldoonthief

Mail never becomes your property? The birthday card I sent my Dad last week still belongs to me?.

Geez.:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[DrDeth]

@Muffin

I think Dr. Deth is correct and I was wrong. Have a boo at the UCC, which is a model for laws on this sort of thing the USA. § 2-401. Passing of Title; Reservation for Security; Limited Application of This Section. | Uniform Commercial Code | US Law | LII / Legal Information Institute

In the USA it comes down to whether the contract included sending the item to the purchaser or delivering the item to the purchaser. If sending, then title passes at the time of shipping. If delivering, title passes at time of delivery. The question posed was “posted to me”, which usually would imply specific rather than general delivery, so title would transfer at time of delivery. I mistakenly equated posted with sent. My apologies.

Thanks for the correction, Dr. Deth.

Many people do think that and it was promulgated among eBay sellers for years. So, it is understandable.

There are exceptions, like FOB freight, etc. But these dont apply to normal day to day use by most people.

[Tim_T-Bonham.net]

@Joey_P

Because after doing that for years and years and years at some point you say ‘the hell with it, they haven’t lived here in 3 years, I tossing all their mail now, clearly they’re not missing this stuff’.

For various reasons I did the ‘addressee not at address’ thing for a while. I’ll bet I wrote some version of that on over a hundred envelopes and it never made any difference.
The majority of these were for the people I bought my house from, they were really lazy about everything involved in moving out of a house. Luckily at this point it’s just junkmail.
But really, it probably over a year before important stuff stopped showing up and several years before non-junk mail stopped showing up for them.

Why didn’t you just fill out a Change-of-Address form for them with the Post Office?

You can fill this out for someone else (it just has to be done in person, not online). If you don’t have their new address, in that spot you write “Moved, left no forwarding address” (you’re in practice for that!) and identify yourself as ‘Current resident, filed on behalf of above’ or ‘as agent of above’. You might want to do this for each different way their name is spelled on the unwanted mail. And handing these forms directly to your carrier helps to get them processed (he has a personal incentive to reduce the amount of mail that he has to carry to you & then carry back the next day).

[iamthewalrus_3]

@t-bonham@scc.net

Why didn’t you just fill out a Change-of-Address form for them with the Post Office?

Whenever I’ve filled out a change of address form for myself, the forwarding only lasts a year. I guess that’s an improvement over marking as return to sender every envelope, but I don’t really want to fill one of those out every year either.

Presumably what most people do, which is to forward/return stuff for a while, then just toss everything, is a pretty functional system.

[Tim_T-Bonham.net]

@iamthewalrus_3

Whenever I’ve filled out a change of address form for myself, the forwarding only lasts a year. I guess that’s an improvement over marking as return to sender every envelope, but I don’t really want to fill one of those out every year either.

The Change-of-Address notice also goes into the USPO National Address Database, which is used by all the big mailers, both junk mail and the credit card companies, banks, insurance companies, financial companies, etc. It may take a couple of months, but all of them should then remove this address from their files.

[mmmiiikkkeee]

In Canada those change of address forms are not only temporary in nature but also cost you… when I did it I think I had to pay $85 to have mail sent to a different address for 1-year.