When Is A Man's Seed Not A Man's Seed? (Bible Scholars?)

[Rue_DeDay]

I have a question. (Obviously. Hense the post in this Forum.)

Way back in Catholic School (motto: Because we said so, that’s why! And none of your sass.) they told us it was a sin to “touch yourself”. This, of course, led to a parallel of the Saturday Night Live skit where Chevy Chase (I think, but don’t really care) gets the same lecture and proceeds to poke himself in the cheek, on the forehead, etc.

The “touching yourself” was later explained as “spilling your seed”. Which made us very tidy gardeners.

OK. Everyone knew they were talking about [sub]masturbation[/sub], but were too chicken to come right out and say it. Nuns can be such a hoot.

So I go on with my life… I mean my friend goes on with his life, and had a parting of the ways with The Mother Church, got married, had kids and got a vasectomy. (Which would be a sin.)

Enough back-story. Here’s the question.

If my friend would have his faith re-awakened, for whatever reason, and re-joined the Catholic Church and confessed his sin of vasectomization, would I… I mean he, get a free ride on the masturbation front?

His seed is no longer “seed”, so can it be spilled with impunity?

What’s the letter of the law?
What’s the spirit of the law?

I did a search and found this thread.

It had this…

*Originally posted by Llardball *
**The Catholic Church believes that homosexuality is a sin in the same sense that masturbation is a sin. The Church believes that the whole point of sex, as anyone would agree, is to create a baby. Thus, a man and a woman must unite and have sexual intercourse for a baby to be created; not a man and a man, or a woman and a woman. The Church believes the only time that sex is not a sin is when a man and a woman are married, and their purpose is to create a baby–free of contraceptive, and free of any other artificial means of prevention or potency.
**

No real reason to ask. I’m just curious.
-Rue.

[Revtim]

I’m no biblical scholar, but I always assumed that the spirit of this rule was that it was really the pleasure of sex that they wanted to prevent without the possibility of a child being created.

[JeffB]

This is not nearly as good as your stories over in MPSIMS.

My thinking is that your friend would not be held to different standards on the questions of masturbation. The quote by lardball that “The Church believes the only time that sex is not a sin is when a man and a woman are married, and their purpose is to create a baby” is not the entire story. This is the older thinking in the Catholic Church, but more recently sex (within marriage, of course) is also seen as a way to increase intimacy. You shouldn’t do anything artificial to prevent pregnancy, but obviously you can have sex with the intention of not becoming pregnant.

The issue is not strictly one of “spilling your seed” (though there are people who would disagree with me.) We produce sperm thoughout our lives, most of which is “spilled” naturally. You’ll even find people within the Catholic Church teacing the masturbation itself isn’t wrong, but that the dange lies in too much self-focus rather that other-focus. (We’re moving into the psycho-babble realm now, but I hope you get my point.)

[Rue_DeDay]

Well, gee, JeffB, I’m sorry if my insatiable quest for knowlege doesn’t amuse you. Maybe I should have written straight to The Master Himself.

Dear Cecil,
Will I go to Hell if I jack off after my vasectomy?
Yer pal,
Rue

Would that have been better?

I just thought we needed and good masturbation question on Friday.

All kidding aside, thanks for the answer. I appreciate it. (Really. I’m not being a smart-ass here.) You too Revtim.

-Rue.

[JeffB]

*Originally posted by Rue DeDay *
Well, gee, JeffB, I’m sorry if my insatiable quest for knowlege doesn’t amuse you. Maybe I should have written straight to The Master Himself.

Actually, it did amuse me (the story part, that is). I was just trying to pay you a backhanded compliment on your story-telling abilities. I just discovered your MPSIMS threads the other day, and I loved them.

Dear Cecil,
Will I go to Hell if I jack off after my vasectomy?
Yer pal,
Rue

Would that have been better?

That does sound like something Cecil might answer.

I just thought we needed and good masturbation question on Friday.

A good masturbation question is always appropriate.

All kidding aside, thanks for the answer. I appreciate it. (Really. I’m not being a smart-ass here.) You too Revtim.

Glad to lend a hand (so to speak). It’s an interesting theological question, one that doesn’t have a simple answer, or perhaps no answer at all.

[dolphinboy]

What about female masturbation? There’s no seed spilling going on there but orgasms are happening (hopefully) and no baby is going to happen! Is that also a sin? Even after marriage?

[The_Devil_s_Grandmother]

Silly boy. Women don’t masturbate.

[bonzer]

I’m mildly surprised - doesn’t everybody know the “dirty bits” in the Bible - that nobody seems to have realised that “spilling your seed” is a specific reference to what is usually otherwise euphemistically refered to as “the sin of Onan”. To quote from the Authorised version, Genesis, chapter XXXVIII:

“And she conceived, and bare a son; and she called his name Er. And she conceived, and bare a son; and she called his name Onan… And Er, Judah’s first-born, was wicked in the sight of the LORD; and the LORD slew him. And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother’s wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother. And Onan knew that the seed should not be his: and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother’s wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother. And the thing which he did displeased the LORD; wherefore he slew him also.”

As a result, Onan’s name has been associated with masturbation down the ages. The stereotype is English public school headmasters making cryptic references to the passage by way of warning; the main surprise about Rue DeDay’s experience is that the nuns were also quoting the King James phrasing. Of course, it’s only fair to note that the description isn’t directly about masturbation at all. And that “seed” here apparently means offspring. I don’t have any specific references, but I recall that the God-endorsed precident that a man should marry his brother’s widow has been invoked in certain circumstances over the years.

[TitoBenito]

I spill pollen not seeds. That is a much better analogy.

[bughunter]

I think it’s about time for the link to “Every Seed is Sacred”

[SUB]WANT MORE?[/SUB]

[Guinastasia]

So, did he mean that like, coitus interuptus is what’s sinful?

[mangeorge]

*Originally posted by TitoBenito *
**I spill pollen not seeds. That is a much better analogy. **

Good point, Tito, but maybe a little too absract for some.
Technically, men don’t carry the ‘seed’. That’s the woman’s job. And she does it well.
Don’t you liberated women just love me? ([sub]and Tito[/sub]).

Peace,
mangeorge

[ShibbOleth]

Hi Rue! IANACP, to which the Olethlings[sup]TM[/sup] can attest, but my thinking is this: in order to get out of canonical hot water on the birth control thing, you would have to get the vasectomy reversed. And then of course it would be seed spilling all over again after that.

Once again, its as if you are in my head, since Mrs. Shibboleth and I were just discussing the other day how it’s kind of ironic that my mother does not receive communion because my father had a vasectomy. But my father does not attend church, and more importantly, they are both well beyond child bearing years at this point. So you would think she could get some pardon and go back to scarfing down the host, but for some reason this does not occur.

[Astroboy14]

SINNER!!!

BURN HIM!!!

*Off to the “shower”…

[Mangetout]

I saw a really freaky fundie web page the other day, linked from fark.com, where the guy was basically saying that just about anything you really want to do is a sin, he said that at the point of repentance, a vasectomised male should be expected to make at least one genuine attempt to have it reversed. sheesh.

I found the link (here) - seems extreme on just about anything; can somebody tell me if this site is for real?

[dqa]

Wow, Mangetout, quite a site.

Referring to the Challenger astronauts:

…six of the seven had been practicing some form of birth control. This would mean -using prior definition– that there may have been six sodomites who were terminated in the “accident.” Was this a warning from God? This type of tie-in is sure to be unpopular, but what if it is true? As for the 7th man, if he was in grace then he is saved and his family provided for according to God’s will.

My favorite part has to be this double entendre:

In 1996 women bought approximately 400,000 vibrators, 450,000 naughty nickers, and 650,000 (naughty?) Bras. The parties illustrate the success of feminism. They also indicate the growth of immorality among women when they are left to their own devices.

[Mangetout]

That’s why I couldn’t quite decide whether it’s for real or a large and elaborate spoof, like Landover baptists.