When is someone "the late" John Smith?

Seems like if someone has died recently I see articles that say “the late John McCain” but you don’t see that if someone died long ago like JFK. Is there a rule about when you just say the person’s name without “the late” since we all know they are dead?

There is no set rule and various style guides set the limit on when you should use late at anywhere from 10 years to 50 years. From a practical perspective “the late” is used to indicate to the reader that the person is deceased, so it makes sense to use it in any case when you think the reader might not know and the information is relevant.

Agreed.

You’ve gotta be careful about usage. There’s a story about how someone was making a speech and referred to Winston Churchill as “the late Chancellor of the Exchequer”, to which (a very live) Churchill in the audience loudly voiced his objections. It was explained to him that it sounded odd to speak of “the ex-Chancellor of the Exchequer”. :slight_smile:

I once read a little history pamphlet about the title of Prince of Wales and saw a reference to “His late Majesty King George III”.

That’s probably an outlier. :wink:

It is considered bad from to use it for people who are merely running a little behind. :wink:

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Agreed. Occasionally it could be used to disambiguate between living and dead John Smiths, but that’s a bit tacky I think.

I am sorry, it just would feel wrong not to post that.

No, but it’s a bit of an old joke.

As noted, there’s no formal rule. But I have seen it suggested that about a year is appropriate.

My husband passed away 19 years ago this July. If I say something about him to someone who never knew him or anything about him or never knew I was married, I’ll say, “my late husband.” In fact, I’ve done that here. For people who knew him or knew of him and know that he’s dead, I’ll just use his first name.

I’m from New England. New Englanders are very time conscious, and I tell people we must have started that usage. In New England, the only excuse for being late is being dead.

I would think in that situation he would be the “*former *Chancellor of the Exchequer”. Unless this is a sly dig, what passes for humour in English politics.

Yes you do. The rule is that he’s “late” if a great many people still remember him being alive. And plenty of us remember JFK.

if a person was alive when you were alive you have to be reminded he’s dead?

Though Strunk & White’s Elements of Style doesn’t give a hard-and-fast rule, it does suggest that “the late Julius Caesar” would run afoul of it.

I think the basic rule is whether it’s certain that readers would already know (or remember) that the person is dead.

If that’s a rule, it’s been violated for the past 40 years or more. I can’t recall the last time I saw JFK referred to as “late.”

I’m going to have to ask for a cite on that one.

I found a few articles from not long ago saying the late JFK Jr and he died in 1999

In English usage, “late” is a synonym for “recent,” e.g.,“the late war.”

I strongly suspect that in this story, both the original speaker and Churchill knew it was meant that way, and that Churchill was making a self-deprecating joke, a la Mark Twain.

This is the kind of situation that just begs for the word erstwhile.

A related question, if I may: if the origin of „the late John Smith“ was „the person who is no longer John Smith“, is/was ‚late‘ ever used with reference to a person who has changed their name, e.g. by marrying or coming into a title?