Only if you have a very specifid and literal understandin of the Second Coming, which is not shared by most Christians. And even if you do have this understanding, the fact that some of the condition to the Second Coming have been satisfied does not mean that the remaining conditions will soon be satisfied, or that the Second Coming is imminent.
Actually, one of the reasons for the Crusades, however, was to recapture Jerusalem so that Christ could return. Besides, the millenial cultists throughout history have all been just as convinced their reasons for expecting Christ’s return were right. Me, I’m starting to wonder if He is waiting for the time when not one single person on the planet is expecting his imminent return, sort of a Divine “Gotcha!” Then again, I’m also a firm believer that God has a warped sense of humour. 
Respectfully, believe it or not,
CJ
Given the mutually contradictory accounts found in the Gospels, it seems likely to me that the Resurrection never happened. But, as I said, Christianity is founded on a myth of such resilience that I cannot see it ever dying out, so at least on the point of the Church’s longevity, His4Ever and I can agree. In any event, it’s is counterproductive and contradictory to Jesus’s teachings to fret about the details of the End times. The work of the Christian is to love God with all her heart, soul, and mind, and to love her neighbor as herself–period. Anything else is just details best left to the Almighty.
And, yes, Minty, I have my reservation with Zaphod Beeblebrox and party.
Awful close, but not quite. Using metaphor and mythology to relate to everyday life situations is no more wrong then using a picture model of atoms in a moleculer chain to give you an idea of how the molecule is structured. At least, that’s how I feel.
I agree. I think that David Simmons is assuming that when we say that something is a myth, we mean that it is untrue. This is not the case at all.
You’re right vanilla. Are you familiar at all with Jack Van Impe? He talks a lot of prophecy.
Ha!
I just saw him this morning on a cable channel.
His books on Revelation are excellent!
Dictionary.com lists 4 definitions for myths:
a. A traditional, typically ancient story dealing with supernatural beings, ancestors, or heroes that serves as a fundamental type in the worldview of a people, as by explaining aspects of the natural world or delineating the psychology, customs, or ideals of society: the myth of Eros and Psyche; a creation myth.
b. Such stories considered as a group: the realm of myth.
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A popular belief or story that has become associated with a person, institution, or occurrence, especially one considered to illustrate a cultural ideal: a star whose fame turned her into a myth; the pioneer myth of suburbia.
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A fiction or half-truth, especially one that forms part of an ideology.
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A fictitious story, person, or thing: “German artillery superiority on the Western Front was a myth” (Leon Wolff).
When dealing with religions I use definitions 1 and 2. I find that alot of people get confused and use definitions 3 and 4 instead. It’s unfortunate really, when I say that myths are a major part of religions and some automatically assume I mean religions are composed of lies.
You’re making “truth” synonymous with fact, which is an inaccurate comparison. Myths are ideas we create to explain the universe to ourselves, to create a moral compass. There’s a passage in Terry Pratchett’s Feet of Clay that goes roughly (I’m paraphrasing from memory here, since my copy is at home): “Grind the universe into dust, then sift through it and show me one gram of Justice or an atom of Mercy.” Myths are the comforting lies we tell ourselves, but that can, like Pinocchio, by dint of effort and commitment can become real.
You have a flawed understanding of the Biblical notion of prophecy. You, along with your co-religionists, seem to equare prophecy with telling the future, and that’s not a prophet’s job. Look at the prophets of the Bible: Isaiah, Jeremiah, Micah, Habakkuk… Prophets speak for God; they are the intruments through whom God warns His people to behave, admonishes kings who disobey His will, and explains how He expects his people to live.
But there are also examples of prophets telling the future, gobear. Por ejemplo, Isaiah with the foretelling of the coming of the messiah. And of course, if a prophet tells a community that if they don’t shape up, bad things will happen to them…and then they don’t change and something bad happens to them, that’s predicting the future.
But you are right for the most part, the prophet’s main job was to be an intermediary and God’s spokesman.
Those passages can be interpreted a number of ways
[list]
[li] As a foretelling of the coming of Jesus[/li][li]As a metaphor for the suffering and redemption of Israel[/li][li]as flattery of the king of Israel[/li][li] as a warning of the arrival of the Jewish Messiah (a different concept from the Christian version) who would purify Israel[/li]
And so on.
And warnings of punishment don’t really count as telling the future, unless you count every mother in the world as a prophet: “If you don’t clean up your room, young man, you’re going to get it!”
Hah! Well Steel, I respect your beliefs even though I don’t share them. I also respect the fact that you have allowed your beliefs to be challenged. All too frequently people seem to cover their ears and refuse to hear anything that might contradict what they believe, which always makes me wonder about their convictions.
One thing though, if there is a god, and it created everything in the universe, then it must have also created the concept of evil. If so, then evil must be present in it, or the concept would never have come about. You may say that Man created evil, but wouldn’t it be just as likely that we discovered something that was laying dormant inside us?
Moot though, since I believe evil IS a human concept, and varies from society to society at that.
Give the reins of Christian leadership to Jerry Falwell and i predict the downfall of Christianity in 10 maybe 15 years MAX
Well, yes and no. Scientists do make mental models to help them visualize things that can’t be seen or experienced directly. However, good scientists do recognize that the models are woefully incomplete and are really only approximations, furthermore the models are tested continually by making predictions based on them and seeing if the predictions are confirmed.
In addition, no scientist that I know of proposes making these models the basis for organizing a society by passing laws controlling the actions of all in the society based on the models. Your post suggested that religion is heading toward a time when the devotees of the major religions will regard the “literal truth of their respective doctrines is not as important as the underyling metaphors behind it .” It seems to me that in that case the doctrines of those who follow such a path can wander into any kind of fantasy without restraint. And, since those who practice some sort of religion are a majority and have great influence on how society is organized, future societies, in your view, will more and more be based on metaphor.
If that is true rationalists will be in great danger, as often has been the case in the past and maybe in the present.
Now as to the difference between myth and fact these are the definitions you say you apply to religions.
- *a. A traditional, typically ancient story dealing with supernatural beings, ancestors, or heroes that serves as a fundamental type in the worldview of a people, as by explaining aspects of the natural world or delineating the psychology, customs, or ideals of society: the myth of Eros and Psyche; a creation myth.
b. Such stories considered as a group: the realm of myth.*
- *A popular belief or story that has become associated with a person, institution, or occurrence, especially one considered to illustrate a cultural ideal: a star whose fame turned her into a myth; the pioneer myth of suburbia. *
In both of them there doesn’t appear to by any restraint on what can be included in a myth. So over time, it seems to me they will tend to degenerate into the fictions of your definition 3.
What makes you think I rely solely on my metaphors and myths to guide my life? That couldn’t be further from the truth. Also, what makes you think those myths and metaphors don’t change constantly? Personally, I use what works, and that could change tomorrow if need be.
Ah, now we get to the current difficulty of religion telling you exactly how to experience deity, which is never a good thing. Everyone will experience spirituality in a different way, or not at all. A religion is supposed to be only a guide to the trancendental, not a set of rules and regulations you must follow in order to get to heaven. Unfortunately, this is not the case with today’s major religions.
One thing you missed. That majority you mentioned will start following individual paths completely distinct from all others (sort of like what’s happening with Paganism today). Organized religion will become very difficult, and as a result will have very little impact on how societies are organized. Future societies, in my view, will become far more rational than they are today, because it will be understood, once again, that religion is simply a guide to sprituality, not a set of rules and regulations to get to heaven, which would then be rightly understood to be only a metaphor anyways.
Now, I don’t want to say you have a persecution complex, but lets just say I disagree with your assertion that rationalists will be in danger. Refer to my previous statement for the reason why.
(Bolding mine)
Wait a minute, are you advocating dogma and doctrine? If so, then we have a difference of opinion which will not be resolved in this thread, in which case we will just have to agree to disagree.
I checked my post and I can find no reference to you personally, or your method of conducting you life. My post was supposed to give my opinion on the difference between scientific model making and mythologisin. I guess I did a bad job of it.
Well, one can always hope.
But you will.
Actually I check under the bed for Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell every night. On the other hand, if they manage to hex me into illness, Benny Hinn is there with the healing hands.
Come now. You’re trying to put words in my mouth. There is a lot of room between mythologising without restraint and adhering to a prescribed dogma and doctrine.
Sure, we disagree. People do sometimes, that’s why they make ice cream in all those different flavors.
Christianity is on its last legs in Western Europe now.
http://webmail.earlham.edu/archive/opf-l/May-2001/msg00063.html
It is growing in the more backward areas of the world and has a strong position in the US due to the generally unsophisticated cultural and political level of the people there. It is fighting for its bankrupt life by trying to impose all kinds of dogma on the body politic.
I would say give it no more than 200 years before we can convert all churches into museums on the pre-history of humanity.
I’m not sure it’s time yet to say it’s on it’s “last legs.” Give it a few more decades. You never know what might cause people to start going back to church. Sadly, we do seem to be a species with a weakness for bending at the knees.
As for turning the churches into museums, I thought they were already.