As modernity proceeds the supernatural & miraculous underpinnings of theist belief systems like Christianity etc. are becoming more and more attenuated in terms of how far educated people in modernity are willing to invest in the strength of their supernatural claims. People in modernity seem to be turning to a concept of religion and faith as an eclectic collection of ethical and behavioral metaphors.
How far can supernatural “Sky God” style belief systems like Christianity survive into modernity?
If the belief remains easily digestible, in take-home bite-sized chunks that don’t take much thinking to absorb, such belief systems will survive. That goes for any belief system, not just Christianity.
It depends. If science can only explain physical phenomena and religion is considered metaphysical and beyond the physical, then forever. Virtually all examples of Gods intervention will be eliminated though (Gods role in disease, natural disaster, war, etc) but people will still believe in a God.
Have you noticed though that for the last few decades there has been a counter movement AGAINST the very thing the OP is speaking of? Psudo-science seems to be thriving, encounters with aliens and alien abductions don’t seem to have diminished, Crop Circles, Crystals with healing powers, ancient Chinese secret medicines…hell even stuff like homeopathy is still a going concern and seems to actually be making yet another resurgence. The whole New Age belief system seems to fly in the face of an assertion that we are somehow becoming more rational…and I suppose you could argue that as things tighten down more and more people will be in search of the mystical, of what they think can’t be explained by the rational scientific mind.
I USED to think that we were in the end times…the end times of religion I mean, that the whole New Age craze was simply a last gasp as folks tried in vain to rediscover some mystical magical past. Now I’m not so sure.
I think the old style religions may have quite fertile ground for some time to come…
I feel that faith- in one form or another- is likely to persist in one form or another for as long as humanity does. After all, humans do seem to have an inherent liking for something beyond themselves- whether that be a mysticism-based view of the human spirit (a la, say, spiritualism and similar) or a true belief in any kind of deity. All that will change in the future is the faces we attach to the things we imagine.
Also, I don’t think its true to say that a) all faith is based on ignorance and that b) we will one day understand everything. It seems that people still need gods even when they no longer are used simply to explain lightning et al- they use them, if nothing else, as moral and ethical centres around which to base their lifes. Also, each new scientific discovery often seems to open up new, unexplored territory- for example, delving into relativity led to quantum theory, which was even more complex and mystifying (I generalise and simplify greatly).
It certainly seems possible that, as time goes on, religions on the whole will evolve away from direct and literal belief in a god (particuarly one that intervenes in human affairs) to a more generalised belief system that can neither be particuarly proven or disprove- like, perhaps Buddhism. We also see this happening, I think, in current religous debate- we no longer see the Bible as the literal word of god, but as parables and metaphors showing philosophical truths. I realise there are holdouts- the whole fundamentalist movement, for example- but I think religions will evolve, rather than be destroyed. Christianity, to take just one, would not have survived for nearly as long as it has unless there were a reasonable set of ideological principles beneath the miracles. They may be idealistic and dogmatic, but the basic (New Testament) message seems to me to be about as reasonable (and realistic) as, say, communism, libertarianism or similar.
To the extent that religion is a tool that people can use to wield their social philosophy, I think it will be cyclical. You could argue that we’re currently undergoing a resurgence of Christianity in the USA in response to issues like legalized abortion, gay marriage, etc. There will always be people who oppose various cultural trends and religion can be a good way to “hit back.”
I also agree with Wesley Clark that science only has so much power to undermine religion. No matter how far it advances, there’s still room for the supernatural.
I agree with the theory that religion has a strong genetic component. It is fundamentally immune to facts and reason; no matter how utterly silly a religion is, people will continue to believe it. Short of genetically engineering it out of us ( and how would you get people to consent ? ), it’ll be around for as long as humans are. Which won’t be long, with religion around; at least not as anything other than a few survivors on a devastated planet.
I think religion evolves and matures like other things. As generations pass new knowledge comes to the fore and eventually becomes common knowledge. Christianity has changed in the last 2000 years and has more liberal open minded members than ever before. It may take another 2000 years and more scientific discoveries but I think eventually some of the myth of religion will be replaced by a more honest approach in which we admit some of the things we just don’t know are accepted as just that. Mysteries. It’s okay to call your particular mystery God if you choose. Of course it will take some time for people to loose their desire and need to have someone else tell them what God thinks and wants.
As science knocks off things that religion used to explain, the picture starts to snap into focus, and religious people tend to grab tighter to their beliefs. When (if?) science proves there’s no afterlife, then the last brick gets removed, and the Jenga game gets to fall down.
But that’s the really cool thing about beliefs – they’re chosen! No one (okay, maybe a few people) believes that the sun is a chariot-pulled ball of fire that runs from one side of the sky to the other. That particular belief has pretty much died out because although people can believe what they want, it’s more difficult in the face of actual science.
That’s the beauty part though. Everyone gets to choose what they want to believe in (or not believe in). And each belief or “religion” is perfectly valid, because although it cannot be proven, you can believe it in anyway - which is the basis of faith. Christianity, Judaism, Daoism, Great Pumkinism… whatever. And we can each pick and choose to believe individual pieces of established religion -which is how we get “orthodox,” “reformed” and “Southern” religions. Can’t find a religion you like? Invent one! It worked for L. Ron Hubbard and Jim Jones.
Religion will not die out. Christianity might. Baalism did. Needs change, but people will continue to believe whatever they want to, to justify whatever they need to.
As I said above I disagree. What are your indications that this is happening? Have you noticed a decline in anti-science/psudo-science explaination for the ‘supernatural’? I have not noticed one myself. Why, if people seem to have renewed interest in everything from Crystal healing to Alien abduction do you think that organized religion (of any stripe) in on the verge of collapse? Myself, it looks like quite the opposite is happening.
To paraphrase Princess Lea from Star Wars ‘the tighter your grip the more people will slip through your fingers’. As science continues to stride forward and make great and small discoveries, the more esoteric IT becomes to the common man. Hell, I don’t consider myself QUITE ‘the common man’ and I have a hard time even grasping things like quantum physics…and I took the subject in college! Science itself is becoming more and more specialized…its harder for ‘the common man’ to even grasp the implications of the discoveries these days…let alone have a deeper understanding of them.
And so many folks seem to be turning towards the mysteries, the occult, the supernatural…and religion of one stripe or the other. Perhaps the major religions today are running out of gas (I see no indication this is so, but maybe its true)…but ALL religion? No chance…I think it might be getting worse.
Standard disclaimer that IJMHO and YMMV and all that stuff.
-XT
Yes. Even if we had some kind of technology to view past events, like the aliens in “A.I.,” we could theoretically disprove a particular religion like Christianity or Mormonism, but there’s no conceivable technology or scientific experiment that could disprove “the supernatural” as a whole. People will modify their beliefs but they will continues to believe.
I think science can certainly explain a lot of myths that will eventually be left behind but I have a hard time believing science will ever* prove* there’s* no *afterlife. How could they? We went there and came back and sho nuff…nothing there.
Well, just because science is more specialized and more complex than we could ever have thought, that doesn’t mean it’s any less of an answer.
People that are in the process of being refuted cling a little harder to their beliefs.
Also, because science is getting more complicated, the “common man” might look for the simpler answer: religion. Just because someone yells the incorrect answer doesn’t make their answer any more right (or wrong). It just simply is wrong.
I also think a lot of people are starting to become disenchanted with some of the major religions and are turning to “other” forms of religion (“other” isn’t a good word, and I can’t come up with a better one at this second). It’s nice and convenient to think there’s a place where good people are rewarded and bad people are punished and everthing equals out. I’m simply not convinced that such things are the case.
As science continues to stride forward and make great and small discoveries, the more esoteric IT becomes to the common man. Hell, I don’t consider myself QUITE ‘the common man’ and I have a hard time even grasping things like quantum physics…and I took the subject in college! Science itself is becoming more and more specialized…its harder for ‘the common man’ to even grasp the implications of the discoveries these days…let alone have a deeper understanding of them.