Alessan, are you offended by the continued use of the swastika and similar symbols in non-Western cultures?
I can understand opposing the rehabilitation of the swastika in the West, but have in the past encountered those who oppose its use anywhere (especially after the Pokemon swastika incident.) Language does change with time, but that position sounds a bit like trying to remove a word from a foreign language because it sounds like an offensive word from your own.
Actually, it will only take one generation. But that generation will have to be one that is born into a world without Nazism.
Don’t hold your breath.
Tris
[QUOTE=cckerberos]
Alessan, are you offended by the continued use of the swastika and similar symbols in non-Western cultures?
I can understand opposing the rehabilitation of the swastika in the West, but have in the past encountered those who oppose its use anywhere (especially after the Pokemon swastika incident.) Language does change with time, but that position sounds a bit like trying to remove a word from a foreign language because it sounds like an offensive word from your own.
[/QUOTE]
Pokemon swastika incident? I take it the (relatively) common manji “ban” (I think taht’s what its called at least) found its way onto a card or into an episode or something? Just curious never heard of it.
The odd thing about all this banning stuff due to it is, well quite fankly I’m 90% certain I’ve seen an American cartoon (Xiaolin Showdown, don’t ask, I tend to only watch cartoons and educational programs for some reason) which had the symbol shown quite often on banners around the temple and so far I’m relatively certain there hasn’t been a major outcry. Maybe theres a “popularity” threshold before it becomes bad?
[QUOTE=Jragon]
Pokemon swastika incident? I take it the (relatively) common manji “ban” (I think taht’s what its called at least) found its way onto a card or into an episode or something? Just curious never heard of it.
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Yeah, a manji showed up in the design of a Pokemon card, leading to a number of outraged parents. What made the incident particularly bad (in my eyes) was that that particular card was never actually released in America. It was a Japanese card intended for Japanese consumption only, and only made it into the US because the Pokemon card craze made it profitable to import foreign cards. Would have been in '98 or '99, iirc.
Here’s an AP article on it. It was '99.
What’s wrong with you people, that you’re all upset that you can’t use a swastika without offending people?
How about that you suck it up, and forget about using a swastika in your lifetime? Does the swastika really mean that much to you? Are you that emotionally invested in the swastika? Do you really cry yourself to sleep at night in frustration that everyone has such an emotional reaction to the swastika?
Thing is, you can’t have it both ways. Either the symbol is meaningless in itself, except for what meaning we attach to it, in which case why do you care what meaning other people attach to the symbol? It’s just a squiggle, so why can’t you forget about it? Or the symbol is meaningful, but then how can you complain when other people have a different emotional reaction than you do? How can you declare that your emotional associations with the symbol are correct, and the others are wrong? What’s the purpose of trying to change the association? Even if you could convince everyone not to care, so what? What have you accomplished? Nothing!
Yeah, people in Tibet and India have swastikas all over. Fine. But you aren’t Tibetan, you don’t live in India. Nobody’s talking about going into Tibetan temples and smashing the artwork there.
But you’re not going to march down the streets of Tel Aviv waving a swastika banner any time soon, unless you’re prepared to accept that everyone there will assume that you endorse the Holocaust. And if you’re a Tibetan who loves the swastika symbol, the next time you visit Tel Aviv on holiday how about you put away the swastika scarf while you’re visiting? Kind of like the guidebooks who tell you not to wear shorts when visiting churches in Europe?
In a couple of hundred years the swastika will start to lose its association with genocide. But it’s been a few thousand years and people still make noise to blot out the name of Haman, so don’t expect the Jews to forget any time soon.
[QUOTE=Alessan]
And I will do whatever I can to prevent this.
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You’ll do whatever you can to stop the rise of the Chinese and Indian Global Diaspora? Good luck with that.
[QUOTE=cckerberos]
Alessan, are you offended by the continued use of the swastika and similar symbols in non-Western cultures?
[/QUOTE]
Offended? No. Bothered? Yes, a bit, but it’s not my call. If I ever found myself walking through an Eastern city, when suddenly a swastika-decorated temple appeared before me, I’d clench my fists - an entirely involentary reaction - turn on my heels, and walk somewhere else. I wouldn’t demand that they take the decorations down, no. And I’d expect similar consideration of my cultural mores if any of that city’s inhabitants ever found themselves in my hometown.
[QUOTE=mswas]
You’ll do whatever you can to stop the rise of the Chinese and Indian Global Diaspora? Good luck with that.
[/QUOTE]
Chinese and Indians are smart people - they generaly make an effort to learn the local language. That includes learning to respect the local meanings of symbols. If the natives actually have the courage to stand up for their beliefs, I think the immigrants will adopt new ways. That’s what immigrants do.
[QUOTE=Alessan]
Chinese and Indians are smart people - they generaly make an effort to learn the local language. That includes learning to respect the local meanings of symbols. If the natives actually have the courage to stand up for their beliefs, I think the immigrants will adopt new ways. That’s what immigrants do.
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I’m not talking about immigration. I am talking about when Western culture is no longer the dominant paradigm due to the rise of Eastern Empires, where the new dominant culture doesn’t share the same association with the symbol that you do.
Lemur,
In case you haven’t noticed, some Buddhists have relocated to the West. One of their religious symbols is the swastika. Do you think they should give that up? If so, why then shouldn’t the Christian denominations that use the cross as a symbol give that up?
Alessan,
Why “go somewhere else” when you see that. You’re presumably smart enough to realize that the symbol in that case is not connected with the Nazis, but is a part of religious usage that predates the Nazis.
Also, why should those of that religion be required to abandon the use of their religious symbol just because they happen to be in “your hometown”?
[QUOTE=Monty]
Lemur,
In case you haven’t noticed, some Buddhists have relocated to the West. One of their religious symbols is the swastika. Do you think they should give that up? If so, why then shouldn’t the Christian denominations that use the cross as a symbol give that up?
[/QUOTE]
Well, if American Buddhists want to display a swastika, they’re certainly free do to so, except they’re going to run into a few problems.
A symbol is something that conveys meaning. If the person displaying the symbol means to convey a particular meaning, yet they know the people viewing the symbol are very likely to recieve a different meaning, why are they displaying the symbol?
Like I said, if you’re an American Buddhist who wants to display a swastika, why does it mean so much to you? You know that everyone who sees you wear a swastika is going to think you advocate genocide, so unless your plan is to spend the rest of your life explaining to everyone as you walk down the street that you don’t really love Genocide, you’re going to spread hate and fear rather than good luck wishes. In other words, walking down the street (in the US, Europe, Israel, etc) displaying a swastika makes you a real life troll, someone who enjoys stirring the shit.
As for the cross, I have no idea what you mean. Who sees someone displaying a cross, and then imagines that the message it intends to convey is support for genocide, totalitarianism, and aggressive war?
A visitor to Israel or the US or Europe should be told not to display a swastika, just like visitors to some countries are taught that it’s rude to show the bottom of the shoe, or to point, or to take a picture without permission, or whatever. There are all sorts of local customs that, if you don’t bother to take the time to learn and follow, make you an asshole. Go to Thailand and put a picture of the King on the floor and step on it and see what sort of reaction you get. A Thai visitor to Tel Aviv who insisted on wearing a swastika would be the same sort of asshole.
[QUOTE=Lemur866]
Go to Thailand and put a picture of the King on the floor and step on it and see what sort of reaction you get. A Thai visitor to Tel Aviv who insisted on wearing a swastika would be the same sort of asshole.
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It depends on what your motives are. If it’s iconoclasm for iconoclasm’s sake, I’m not sure what to make of it. If it’s just to provoke a reaction I’d agree you shouldn’t do that.
But if it’s, for example, to protest the fact that people overreact to still letting a former European group co-opt the symbolism of an ancient icon, well, I’m usually opposed to performance art but in this instance it’s a worthy cause.
And you shouldn’t have to change your mode of dress to suit other people. Since I am not in danger of having violent overreactions, I’d suggest from afar to religious easterners that they not go out of their way to expose as many swastikas as possible, but not to refrain from it either if that’s what they normally do. If people continue to deliberately miscontrue this, that reflects worse on them than it does on the wearer.
Monty Perhaps the Buddhists can use this as the perfect time to detach from a certain portion of their identity. 
[QUOTE=Lemur866]
Like I said, if you’re an American Buddhist who wants to display a swastika, why does it mean so much to you?
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Perhaps because it’s part of their religion?
Serious question: How central is the swastika to Buddhism? Can Buddhists be Buddhist without it?
[QUOTE=Thudlow Boink]
Serious question: How central is the swastika to Buddhism? Can Buddhists be Buddhist without it?
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I’m sure they can as long as they have that fat guy statue with a big shit-eating grin on his face…and lots of incense sticks…
[QUOTE=Thudlow Boink]
Serious question: How central is the swastika to Buddhism? Can Buddhists be Buddhist without it?
[/QUOTE]
Part of the point of Buddhism as I understand it is to overcome one’s identity. As symbols are a part of one’s identity, I would think that not needing it would make them a better Buddhist.
[QUOTE=mswas]
Part of the point of Buddhism as I understand it is to overcome one’s identity. As symbols are a part of one’s identity, I would think that not needing it would make them a better Buddhist.
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They need to superimpose Brad Pitt’s face over Buddha’s on every statue, and be forced to watch “Seven Years In Tibet” on an endless loop…for purification of the soul, of course…
[QUOTE=FoieGrasIsEvil]
They need to superimpose Brad Pitt’s face over Buddha’s on every statue, and be forced to watch “Seven Years In Tibet” on an endless loop…for purification of the soul, of course…
[/QUOTE]
Of course. That Brad Pitt always making the Buddhist propaganda like that movie and Fight Club.
[QUOTE=jjimm]
You’ve got that ass-backwards. The swastika was co-opted by the Nazis from the Buddhists and Hindus. The symbol is still widely used as a benign symbol throughout south and east Asia. There are hotels and restaurants all over Asia called “Swastika” with no unpleasant connotations in the minds of the owners. Cite.
[/QUOTE]
I know the basic history of the device, and I know that in the wilds of the Mysterious Orient, it’s not associated with Nazis.
But it’s not ass-backwards to understand that in the West, it’s a Nazi symbol, and must be co-opted (is re-co-opted better?) before it changes meaning.
Sheesh.