When will white, christian moderates speak up?

The BBQ Pit
141

Incidentally, I’m not supporting the OP in this thread. I think it’s stupid.

There’s widespread support in the Islamic world among common people to use terrorism as a way to push Islam and/or punish the west. Islam apologists will always rush in and say “it’s just a few scattered people, you can’t judge a group based on a few individuals!”, to which the question becomes - if this is so abhorrent to common Muslims as you say, where are the denouncements?

I think that misses the point to a degree. While it would indeed be positive if Islamic leaders were willing to denounce the violence, it’s the fact that it’s not an especially fringe view among certain cultures that terrorism is a laudable method in pursuit of their sick goals. A few denouncements here and there, while nice, and possibly even view-changing if they’re heartfelt, wouldn’t change the fact that there’s significantly positive sentiment towards Islamism and Jihadism in certain places.

There’s really no Christian equivalent of that in the west. We largely don’t have people murdering atheists or gays because people like this duck dynasty guy. He’s not a religious leader that’s being asked to condemn a horrible practice by those who did some act in the name of his religion. Now if the guy was a religious leader who taught hatred and violence, and then, when Christians went out and did so in line with his teaching, and he was called on it, then that would be roughly equivelant.

This whole thread is an attempt at false equivalence to obfuscate the support for terrorism in Muslim cultures by trying to draw a weak tu quoque with some Christian bigots. This is an attempt to muddy the issue using lame “gotcha” tactics and fallacious reasoning. He’s attempting to absolve Muslims of evil rather than implicate Christians for evil. I’m rather opposed to it.

That said, I don’t think the guy in the OP’s views are particularly fringe. Maybe you’ve never been to the south, but there are places where admitting you’re an atheist is roughly equivelant of saying “I’m obligated to inform you that I’m a registered sex offender after raping 15 children”

142

So’s yer face.

143

In asking why MCVs allow people like Mr. Robertson to paint them in a bad light you are committing another one of those facilities, begging the question. Mr. Robertson was not speaking to a group of MCVs, nor was he asking as a spokesman for them. You are trying to imply that MCVs are bad because they do not actively speak out against him (that is, paint MCVs in a bad light).

I do have to wonder about your quote, “In order for evil to flourish, all that is required is for good men to do nothing.” Is this to mean, you think Mr. Robertson’s actions are evil? Really?? Because he has opinions that are different and believes in a religion that you do not believe in makes him evil?

Please, explain the purposes of Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Religion if it is not to provide tolerance to different opinions and different Religions?

While I do not agree with Mr. Robertson’s opinions or religious beliefs, I do support the idea that he has the right to express them. I think that is probably at the heart of many of the MCVs that you are not hearing. That makes a lot more sense than they believe that by being quiet, they can allow such evil to flourish.

144

If you were standing in line at the hardware store and the person in front of you was laughing and telling a story about a man being forced to watch his wife and daughter being raped and murdered, would you think “Well… the first amendment sure is cool” or would you think “This guy is fucked up and evil.”

145

To those of the Christian faith, yes. To other religions, where cutting the heads off prisoners of war, and civilians is considered normal, probably not.

I don’t see why atheists would care one way or the other, but several of them seem to object to anyone holding a position opposite to theirs and insist that I change my position on religion or reject my religious beliefs.

I heard them. They should be happy with that.

146

I would probably think that I was looking at an ISIS operative describing an honor killing.

147

Why is believing in something that is scientifically impossible reasonable?

148

Ask any Chicago Cubs fan. Because they have faith.

Why is so important to you that others abandon their religion? Is someone offering you a bounty for every convert, or is this a personal hatred that you need to feed?

149

If people viewed religion here like they do in San Francisco, NYC, or Europe, I probably wouldn’t care. But I live in the south, out in the countryside, where religion is a very oppressive element.

150

I forgot to address this retarded gem.

Rape and murder can be demonstrated to be wrong in many ways. A society that allowed murder and rape would be far less utiltarian than one that did not, which would weaken the benefits of being in a society and probably unravel it from the outset. If not, then it would fall to competing societies that were not so unjust and unstable as to allow murders. The purpose of creating societies is to increase our quality of life through co-operation, and anything so abjectly detrimental to that goal is wrong for that society.

Rape and murder are non-utilitarian. The perpetrator of such acts benefits less than the victim suffers, and so there’s less overall utility in the world for every instance of rape or murder.

Rape and murder violate the social contract. We don’t want to be raped or murdered, and so, to do our part, we don’t rape and murder.

There are a dozen other ways in which you can philosophically determine ethics and morality, none of them have anything to do with faith.

Furthermore, it’s not as if religion arrived at their morality through some divine magic. I mean, yes, that’s the claim, but in reality, it was just a bunch of humans coming up with a list of rules. Some of these rules are so basic that they basically had to be included like “thou shall not murder”, and other ones are completely outdated or arbitrary in nature.

Or, to put it another way, there are mutually contradictory religions on Earth. They can’t all be true. And yet they all have some sort of guide to a way of life, some sort of morality. If you believe one religion, then you believe all the others are false. And so you would believe that their systems of morality, while claiming to be divinely inspired, are not. Rather, they were simply written down by some people.

Would you consider a person of a religion that’s contradictory to yours - say, Hinduism - to be capable of having a moral system? If so, then if those morality systems are non-divine, just like an atheistic moral system would be, why are they superior to one that’s based on modern ethical values instead of ancient ones?
Your “you have faith! gotcha ya!” is the lamest of the lame. A working model of the world is not faith. Reasonable assumptions about the world is not faith. I can articulate and justify why I don’t murder or rape, and it has nothing to do with faith. I can assume the sun will come up tomorrow because I have a good working model of the solar system in my head, that’s not faith. Your juvenile mind comes up with nonsense like “you have faith that your head won’t explode if your brush your teeth, see, you have faith just like us! gotcha ya, atheist!”

It’s so very dumb.

151

Let me give you one example:

James Inhofe is now the chairman of the senate committee on the environment and public works. He is the most powerful legislator on enviornmental issues. He believes that global warming is impossible because the Bible says that the Earth will stay the same, and man is arrogant to think he can influence the planet. God’s got this one. So the most important legislator in the most technologically advanced and richest country in the history of the Earth, one who is also incidentally one of the big driving factors in doing the damage he refuses to undo, believes that environmental legislation is unnecessary because God will handle it. It’s not only not our place to try to affect the enviornment, it’s impossible for us to do so. So hey, go wild.

Is he just one guy with a warped sense of religion? No. He’s elected by millions of people, and put into this committee by his peers who are also legislators, who should have a little more legislative sense than the average voter, because of the pervasive presence of religion in our society. If were a less religious society, say, Holland, he would be laughed out of the race. But in the US, because we have not thrown off the shackles of iron age superstition, he is one of our most powerful men in the country and can most likely single handedly stop all progress facing us in one of the most important issues we have to face this century.

I don’t want my society to embrace ignorance and superstition over enligtenment. Without a doubt the pervasive effect of widespread religion in the US is the source of, and a contributing cause, to countless negative aspects of our society which could be improved by growing up and getting over it.

152

sent you a friend request…

153

May I ask, what exactly, are all moderate Christians required to do? Are they supposed to you know, go out and scream and rail against the fundie jackasses every time this kind of shit happens? Like, holding protest rallies and wearing sac cloth and ashes?

Algher has repeatedly stated what his church has done. Yet, that doesn’t seem to be good enough. Is he supposed to tattoo “I HATE THE FUNDIES AND THEY CAN FUCK OFF AND DIE!!!” to his forehead? I mean, it’s like not everyone wears their beliefs, or non-beliefs or whatever on their sleeves. They just go about their day. If I thought I could rid the entire world of all of the bad things just by constantly saying, “THEY DON’T SPEAK FOR ME!!!” just by saying it every time some asshole makes a statement, I’d gladly do it. But it doesn’t work like that.

154

Are you James Inhofe? You should be careful, I’m an extremist atheist, I might be so bigoted as to tell you that your insistence that your religion trumps all evidence and good public policy is wrong.

Who are you talking to? The drive by non-participatory OP? No one else has really stepped up to defend his bullshit.

155

Here’s the problem with denouncing James Inhofe and Pat Robertson and all the assholes of the Christian faith, as a Christian.

I’m an asshole, too. Jesus tells me that heaven will be full of assholes.

I focus on not being an asshole, but it consumes all of my time and attention, and I don’t do it very well, anyway, even when I am close with the spirit and the least likely to cause trouble. I work on my own abilities not to rape or murder or hurt anyone. I don’t have time or inclination to worry about what fellow Christians think, for I am the least of all.

At most, my churches would ask me to pray that James and Pat and Etc would pray for and receive guidance and truth, and of course, forgiveness. No more or less than praying for terrorists, or alcoholics, or people having a bad day.

And I loved Shodan’s post, so there.

Oh, yeah, and as a Christian, what’s the other thing I can do? I can vote. That’s my conscience, not anyone else’s.

156

What is it that you loved about it? What point wasn’t utterly destroyed by post #150? His post was easily the dumbest in this thread.

157

Oh shit. I meant YOUR post, SenorBeef. You’ve been so full of vile and spittle I wasn’t expecting anything intelligent from you, frankly, so I thought it was a rebuttal.

So sorry, nice post. Reasonable. I agree. Too late to edit.

You can understand, surely, that I was just so shocked to read something reasonable that I could attribute to him. I so very wanted it to be true.

Also I’d like to point out that I just made the very point I was trying to express in my post. I’m an idiot.

158

No… I’ve been following and agreeing with most of your points on this thread

159

Let’s turn back the clock. It’s 1960. What is every white person required to do? Are they supposed to you know, go out and scream and rail against the racist jackasses every time this kind of shit happens? Like, holding protest rallies and wearing sac cloth and ashes?

160

I would accept prayers from a christian that Robertson and his Ilk would reform. Some gesture at least to show they care about the matter.