There Are No Atheists On This Board

[Polycarp]

…and I can prove it!

Let me start by laying some background. The majority of Christians worldwide are members of Catholic, Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, Anglican, and Lutheran churches, all of which tend to focus, not on the Bible as ultimate authority, but on the Church as the body which compiled the Bible, and which brings individual Christians together in a unified body. The individual is obliged to try to live out the teachings of Jesus Christ in his life, and to confess his faith in the traditional language of the Creeds. Sacraments play an important part in his religious life. Some of these people get quite legalistic, but in general they tend to espouse the inclusiveness and acceptance that Christ taught.

However, in thread after thread here, the definitions of the ultra-vocal conservative evangelical (CE) sects: of the Bible as the arbiter of belief, the necessity of a Billy Graham-style conversion experience, and a generally legalistic approach to life, are accepted, not only by their practitioners, but by various and sundry Dopers with no attachment to any Christian faith community. And those of us who argue for the views outlined in the last paragraph are laughed to one side as an ineffectual minority, despite our numbers.

Okay, it’s no skin off my nose if you want to buy their bullshit, and exclude me, Siege, Tom~, yBeayf, Beagledave, Zoe, Baker and a few dozen other Dopers from what is important to us religiously, as far as arguments here go. Annoying, but I can live with it.

However, consistency indicates that if you’re buying their metaphysics, you buy it whole hog. According to those conservative evangelical types, atheists are people who hate God, not those who see no ground for a belief in such an entity. The only reason anyone would choose to be an atheist, say they, is that belief in God means giving up something you consider more important, like say your sex life or your pleasures.

Well, I have not noticed anybody around here who has advocated that (a) God exists and (b) he or she hates Him. Most of the people who call themselves atheists seem to be able to articulate clear reasons why they do not believe in such an entity as the Christian God.

But, obviously, if we define “Christian” by the CE standard, we should consistently define “atheist” by the same standard. Therefore there are no atheists on this board.

Reasonable?

[QuickSilver]

If I’m wrong and find myself standing at the pearly gates when I die, I want you to be my attorney.

[Frank]

You been into the Drambuie, Polycarp?

The CE segments of your religion are the noisiest and the most obnoxious segments of your religion. That’s why they get the attention. Sorry.

[Waverly]

Maybe, which is why I want to be evangelical agnostic. A saint for the unknowing. Follow me, and not know that you might be saved. Or not.

I have a side question for you, Poly, if you will indulge me. I promise not to hijack. Which is more important to you, Relationships or Truth?

[manhattan]

Well that’s going to complicate the big atheist picnic/fundraiser I had planned.

[John_Mace]

How about some links to examples of what you’re talking about? I’m finding it difficult to fully understand what you’re getting at.

[Ol_Gaffer]

@Polycarp

…and I can prove it!

Let me start by laying some background. The majority of Christians worldwide are members of Catholic, Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, Anglican, and Lutheran churches, all of which tend to focus, not on the Bible as ultimate authority, but on the Church as the body which compiled the Bible, and which brings individual Christians together in a unified body. The individual is obliged to try to live out the teachings of Jesus Christ in his life, and to confess his faith in the traditional language of the Creeds. Sacraments play an important part in his religious life. Some of these people get quite legalistic, but in general they tend to espouse the inclusiveness and acceptance that Christ taught.

However, in thread after thread here, the definitions of the ultra-vocal conservative evangelical (CE) sects: of the Bible as the arbiter of belief, the necessity of a Billy Graham-style conversion experience, and a generally legalistic approach to life, are accepted, not only by their practitioners, but by various and sundry Dopers with no attachment to any Christian faith community. And those of us who argue for the views outlined in the last paragraph are laughed to one side as an ineffectual minority, despite our numbers.

I think you misspelled intellectual.

[Jackmannii]

@John Mace

How about some links to examples of what you’re talking about? I’m finding it difficult to fully understand what you’re getting at.

Ditto.

By the way, Polycarp, did you know you’re a Mormon?
I saw your name in the registry.

[EddyTeddyFreddy]

I think you should ask Liberal to recast your argument in formal logic terms. I almost understood it the way you wrote it.

[lno]

@Jackmannii

By the way, Polycarp, did you know you’re a Mormon?
I saw your name in the registry.

Anne Frank, too.

[griffen2]

@Polycarp

However, in thread after thread here, the definitions of the ultra-vocal conservative evangelical (CE) sects: of the Bible as the arbiter of belief, the necessity of a Billy Graham-style conversion experience, and a generally legalistic approach to life, are accepted, not only by their practitioners, but by various and sundry Dopers with no attachment to any Christian faith community. And those of us who argue for the views outlined in the last paragraph are laughed to one side as an ineffectual minority, despite our numbers.

Well, you may not be in a minority Poly but you, and Christians like you, certainly are ineffectual. When you utilise your strength of numbers, when you move beyond the pulpit, the messageboard and the church newsletter into the streets and Courthouses to isolate and ostracize the radical, ignorant lunatics who’ve co-opted Christianity and warped it into a vector for hate and a tool for acquiring political leverage, then the attitude of America’s atheists will undoubtedly change. Until the majority of Christians are no longer content to just sit back and let the James Dobson’s of this world steamroller right over them and sully them with their twisted little agenda’s and social vendetta’s, until the majority of Christians are willing to stand up and shout “Enough! You do not speak for me!” then, sadly, everyone else will continue to assume they do speak for you, at least to an extent.

It’s symptomatic of this global age that, to an extent, silence does indeed give consent. Moderate Christians who are fed up of being lumped in with the bigots and the headcases must realise this and protest against them accordingly. In an age where it’s so easy to be heard, they really have no excuse not to.

[Nic2004]

Polycarp it is always good to hear your thoughts. As I have said in our past exchanges I am an atheist by the general understanding of the term that you and I share. As to your arguement, I have to agree. By the definition of the CE you give, I would not qualify. As with many others, I do not “Hate God” or need to hold such a feeling as a justification to live my life the way I see appropriate. As you so clearly stated, I simply do not accect the existance of the entity, not a hatred of something inconvienent. As an atheist let me be the first to say I do not exist.

[MrFantsyPants]

@manhattan

Well that’s going to complicate the big atheist picnic/fundraiser I had planned.

So, I don’t have to make those three tons of potato salad?

[Nic2004]

@MrFantsyPants

So, I don’t have to make those three tons of potato salad?

I was gonna make a party platter; the Cheeses of Nazareth

[Marley23]

@MrFantsyPants

So, I don’t have to make those three tons of potato salad?

That’s one of the nice things about being an atheist. If you make a bowl of potato salad so big you can’t lift it, logic and proportion don’t go all screwy.

[iamthewalrus_3]

@MrFantsyPants

So, I don’t have to make those three tons of potato salad?

Wait, wait! I may not hate God, but I sure do love potato salad.

[Nocturne]

@griffen2

It’s symptomatic of this global age that, to an extent, silence does indeed give consent. Moderate Christians who are fed up of being lumped in with the bigots and the headcases must realise this and protest against them accordingly. In an age where it’s so easy to be heard, they really have no excuse not to.

I’m not a Christian, but I think this is silly. I identify as “goth.” I choose to identify myself this way. If a small contingent of goths in this country began behaving intolerantly (and I believe the vocal Fundamentalist Christians in this country ARE a minority) and tried to, say, invent legislation that made all “normals” (what a stupid term) second-class citizens, I wouldn’t feel the need to say, “But all goths aren’t like that!”

Isn’t it more than obvious that all Christians are not intolerant bible-thumpers? Why should the more rational Christians have to defend themselves everytime James Dobson or Pat Robertson or whoever says something stupid? Anyone who knows Polycarp or Siege or the rest knows they’re not that way. They do what they can to make sure their beliefs in the Christian spectrum aren’t marginalized by their louder brethren. That’s all they need do, in my opinion.

[uglybeech]

@Polycarp

are accepted, not only by their practitioners, but by various and sundry Dopers with no attachment to any Christian faith community. And those of us who argue for the views outlined in the last paragraph are laughed to one side as an ineffectual minority, despite our numbers.

I’m sorry, can you shed the passive exonerative for a second to help me along? Who are we talking about here? Are you talking primarily about atheists dismissing non-CE Christians as somehow not representative of the faith?

[Bippy_the_Beardless]

I’ve been trying to learn some logic from Liberal so I’ll give it a try

1 CE != Christian

2 CofE (Church of England) != CE

3 CE = Chaotic Evil (From Dungeon Master’s Guide)

4 Chaotic Evil hate everyone except themselves (Common sense from definition of Chaotic and of Evil)

5 God = good (generally accepted hypothesis that God is a good guy)

6 from 3,5 CE != God

7 from 4,6 Chaotic Evil Hate God

8 but CE: states Athiests hate God

9 from 7,8 CE = Atheist God Haters.

[wonky]

@Nocturne

I’m not a Christian, but I think this is silly. I identify as “goth.” I choose to identify myself this way. If a small contingent of goths in this country began behaving intolerantly (and I believe the vocal Fundamentalist Christians in this country ARE a minority) and tried to, say, invent legislation that made all “normals” (what a stupid term) second-class citizens, I wouldn’t feel the need to say, “But all goths aren’t like that!”

Wouldn’t you? I very forcefully distance myself from any movement that attempts to co-opt a group I am a member of. Terms are fluid. Definitions change. I would rather adopt a new term than allow myself to be used as a passive pawn in a game of numbers.