I'm Pitting Something, And I'm Not Sure What

The BBQ Pit
1

Here’s the thread that’s upsetting me – the bunchteen-dozenth discussion of homosexuality, Christianity, the Episcopal Church, the Rt. Rev. V. Gene Robinson, and related short subjects.

I’m not upset with Homebrew – he even, thanks to my first post in that thread, made it a point to contact me off-board to ensure that I wasn’t disturbed with him, and I assured him I’m not. And it’s not gigi or Skammer either; I understand full well where they are coming from.

Maybe what I’m pitting is my own inability to communicate as well as I’d like. I’ve gotten enough compliments on my ability to make issues clear, though, that I think I’m in a minority in feeling as I do about it.

But what the FUCK is the cosmic problem with getting across a simple point of view, that I have tried to phrase, one way or another, a hundred times in the last five years: You are entitled to make your own moral decisions, based on who you are and not who someone else wants you to be, and you should live them out according to the Golden Rule, compassion, fairness, and mercy.

And that’s not merely what I have to say, but what Jesus said about it.

You know: Jesus said it; I believe it; that settles it. :slight_smile:

I honestly do not see where anything whatsoever, in the Constitution, the Bible, or anything else, licenses someone else to come up and, figuratively, take a shit in the middle of someone else’s dinner plate, whether the issue is homosexuality or anything else.

And that, friends, Dopers, and countrymen, is precisely what’s been happening since day one of this whole episode.

If you’re not gay and you’re not Christian, the issue should be of minimal interest to you whatsoever. If you are gay, can you accept the idea that a majority of Episcopalians are people of good will who believe in respecting your dignity and your right to a loving relationship? If you are not gay and a non-Episcopalian Christian, you have some rules laid down by your Lord about how to behave towards your brothers and sisters in Christ, and bluntly, a lot of you are doing one piss-poor job of following them.

That narrows it down to about a dozen of us who are Episcopalians, one or two of whom happen to be gay, who are supposed to be seeking unity in diversity and following the Baptismal Covenant to the best of our abilities – and I think we’re doing our best to do so, Skammer explicitly included in that despite his divergence from some of the rest of us on the sexuality issue.

But it seems like everybody else is finding it necessary to get into the act as well. And dumping on the church I love, and/or on the people that God told us to love as our brothers and sisters, and/or on those who are having problems dealing with concepts they themelves cannot feel.

And the whole thing has given me a bad case of disturbed emotions – not really anger, and not really depression, but something queasy inbetween them.

So am I just not making sense to people? Have I gone completely off the deep end on this? Am I making a big thing out of nothing? Or are people really taking the opportunity to take potshots at things I love and value?

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Brother Poly, sometimes the point you may be trying to make gets lost in an abundance of words. I was interested in that thread but i could not make hide nor hair of what you were so upset about because that post of yours went 'round and around.

I value your input and insights, but sometimes I think you could make a greater point with fewer words.

Just like Jesus.

Sometimes, he didn’t choose to answer a complaint at all, saying simply, “Wisdom is proved righteous by works.”

Not a censure of you, Poly. Just maybe something you would like to think about.

BTW, keep up the good fight. You ARE effective.

jmho, ymmv

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You’re making sense, but, as you said to me recently in another post, I don’t think it’ll make one bit of difference here. :frowning:

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Amen Brother! Preach on!

Although, I would have to say, I fail to see how even Christians are affected by the gay marriage/gayfucking issue. Seriously. They aren’t going to come in the night, kidnapp you and force you to either commit seriously to a loving relationship or let them fuck you in the ass, so it affects you naught.

Here in US Light (Calgary - sorry fellow Calgarians, but there are A LOT of right wing nutters here), some arch bishop fellow just released a letter calling homosexuality an “evil”. On the radio, he said he thought government should legislate morality.

Now there IS a man who should care about homosexuality, since he so clearly needs a good ass-fucking.

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Maybe, but in that thread, I don’t see that. I see good people honestly trying to explore and understand each other’s positions. I don’t see any personal attacks, and I don’t see any

But, you know, I’m kinda dense. :slight_smile:

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Hey! That was my 100th post! And I got to use the term ass-fucking in it!

Huzzah!

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Bethuel would be so proud. ;j

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I think people can have an interest in things other than what they themselves are. I’ve always had a fascination for British royalty, but I’m neither British nor royalty.

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Don’t listen to him, everybody. He’s really Prince Charles.

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Something that I’ve noticed happening to myself–and I speak only for myself here, of course–is that I’m getting more and more sensitive to perceived attacks on my faith and the things most closely related to it (like my church). Even in a thread where there isn’t any clear-cut industrial-strength “you may as well be worshipping a magic pink elf”-type snark, I still think people are making ill implications about me. I think the reason I perceive things this way is because there is a lot of mean-spirited, industrial-strength anti-religion snark around here, and when someone with a history of demeaning my faith says something I tend to infer the worst from it. Given the enormous number of users on the board, it’s easy to mix people up or to get frustrated at the sheer volume of nastyness and infer the worst about someone when doing so isn’t warranted.

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I fully understand that, and in fact, I’m the same way on certain issues. And, really, the only two posters I’m familiar with from that thread are Polycarp and Homebrew, so I don’t know if anyone else participating are known for their anti-Espiscopalian views.

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That would explain a lot.

Polycarp, I stayed out of that thread for a reason; it’s territory that has been rehashed over and over, and the poor horse is still dead!

Even though you and Skammer occupy opposing sides of this argument, you are both sincere men of faith and I can’t see that there will ever be a solution that will satisfy both of you.

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Speaking as an outsider to Christianity — indeed, an outsider to all faiths — I have tremendous respect for the message and the lessons preached by Jesus. The things he said are important, they are true, and the person who lives his life according to those precepts will be a force for good in his world.

At the same time, I have little but contempt for the vast, bleating herds of people who say they are followers of Jesus but whose words and actions make it clear they don’t have the foggiest idea what Jesus stood for or how he said people should behave.

I suspect the fact that I’m not a Christian and that I have no dog in the theological fight makes the rampant and unending hypocrisy somewhat easier to take.

Somewhat.

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Gobear, you make a great point. I went back and carefully reread the thread, including the additions from after I unsubbed it, and your post seems right on the money.

Thanks.

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Well, to some of us, it appears if it weren’t for the persistence of some aspects of these things you “love and value” (not to single out Christianity as the sole offender), the “gay lifestyle” issue might really be rather obsolete by now, as I don’t see many secularists in this nation arguing about it in similar fashion. It’s great that the personal morals of some good folks override some of the more absurd elements of the scriptural received wisdom; but as you noted yourself, the faith is not composed just of those good folks. Since they all lay claim to Communion membership, and have not seen fit to part ways in schism, it’s impossible to always neatly delineate what are, precisely, the problem elements.

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Yes, what he said, just about exactly. I don’t go to church, I don’t believe in organized religion at all, and I generally don’t talk about the details of my faith - nor do I usually want to hear anyone else’s.

But I recognize that you, Polycarp, are a good person and I see you making a conscious effort all the time to be a good Christian. Whether your particular views have any effect on an argument is neither here nor there - the fact that you present your arguments and your faith so straightforwardly and without rancor or bile makes you the kind of person I would want to be.

For whatever that’s worth :slight_smile:

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I’m reluctantly and, frankly, waveringly avoiding that thread because I realize that I have no dog in the fight really, being gay but not Episcopalian (or Christian, for that matter), and my off-the-cuff reaction to the folks holding the Old School line tends to be more than a little abrasive. I don’t want to shit in the thread, given that even were it a bathroom, it’s not mine.

It’s tough, though…

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The point’s come across. Keep looking around at the number of people who have come to follow the above adage guided by your posts.

I don’t see where that’s happened here, especially not in the linked thread. If nothing, there was good-natured, respectful disagreement.

I shall maintain my interests based on my preferences. Maybe I shouldn’t be interested in this, but I am, and I will maintain this interest. Sorry.

I don’t see any potshots at the church and the people you love and value. I mean, if you could point them out to me, I’d be grateful. And if I’m taking potshots at your church, please let me know. That’s not my intention.

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Sometimes the enemy of my enemy is just another narrowminded asshole. Loving both of them is a burden, which would be much lightened if they shut the fuck up.

Tris

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You know Tris-that’s sigline material, there. ::applause:: :wink: