I find this ridiculous. In truth, as written in the New Testament, Jesus went into the desert to be tested by Satan. Jesus went to Satan. Satan served a purpose in God/Jesus’s plan in the NT. As presented in the NT there should be a Quad-something, like The Father/The Son/ The Holy Ghost/ and the Tester.
This thread was opened in General Questions looking for a factual answer to a question regarding the development of an idea.
Please do not clutter it up with odd theological speculation or arguments. We have a forum for that–Great Debates–and if anyone would like to carry on that particular conversation, one should open their own thread in that forum.
(I am not looking forward to seeing such a thread in my domain, but we should really try to avoid dragging perfectly good General Questions into other fora in order to fight over personal beliefs.
[ /Not quite Moderating ]
As stated above, it is within biblical doctrine, and is stated in the bible, if only by Satan himself, that Satan has dominion over the earth. The Bible does not state clearly whether this was one of Satan’s lies.
But, also, there are instances in the bible where Satan is not banished to Hell at all, such as in Job. Where he functions again as part of God’s entourage.
And to the moderators, this whole thread should not be in GQ anyway in my opinion.
Of course it should. It’s a factual question regarding the origin of the modern concept of the Devil.
It certainly does not come from Dante. I’ve read the Inferno, and it has Satan as a prisoner in the deepest, most inaccessable part of Hell.
I guess I can either read Dante or quit blaming him for Satan in the red suit, pointed tail, horns, and pitch fork. I had always though much of the non Biblical lore of Satan and Hell came from the Inferno. So when did pitch forks come into use? I don’t remember any references to them in the Bible. My memory is a sorry source. The concordance I just checked isn’t. No mention of a pitchfork. So it looks like the Devil with a pitchfork came later. That leaves us with only about 2,000 years to sort through. One needs to be careful of books and paintings. I understand the table in the last supper painting was just like the ones in the room where the monks ate. Of course, the pitch fork could have been added to an older image when it was a hot, new technology.
Alas.
I am curious why you hold that view. The character Satan appears in several different works within the bible, (and outside it), and that character is assigned different appearances and personalities. Identifying which traits in which works of literature are assigned to a character named “Satan” is a question with a factual answer, regardless what any specific religious, (or non-religious or irreligious), groups may express as their current views of that character.
I think that the pitchforks are actually tridents, like Neptune used, and come from the tradition of identifying the previous culture’s gods with the present culture’s demons (similar to how demons are depicted as resembling Pan).
[Moderating]
Agreed. The OP has a factual answer and is a legitimate topic for GQ. Posters who wish to debate theological aspects should start another thread in Great Debates.
Colibri
General Questions Moderator
Does the common image of Stan having red skin have to do with the fact he is in fiery pits of hell?
Since he used to be a former angel, isn’t he supposed to be ‘beautiful’?
I always thought Satan was somewhat like Hades. Passive. They’re both misunderstood(Not sure on Satan)
I like the Greek version of afterlife. If you are a bad person, you’re sent to Tartarus but you don’t stay there for an eternity. You’re sent off to your next incarnation.
If you’re middle(neither good and bad ), you go to the Asphodel Meadows.
If you’re really good, you go to the Elysion Fields.
Kinda of a Heaven/Hell/Purgatory hybrid.
One tends to see what one is familiar with. I have seen many pitchforks, but not sure about a real trident. It is also possible some artists may have been more familiar with pitchforks. I think tridents have straight tines with the center one longer, and pitchforks have equal length curved ones. My concordance doesn’t have tridents in it either.
OK we have Satan, dressed in red with horns, a long tail with an arrowhead like tip, and carrying a trident and ruling Hell. Those familiar with the Bible and the Inferno doubt them as the source. It seems we are getting no closer to a good answer to the OP’s original question.
It’s still debatable, though. Who knows exactly where the idea that Satan rules hell comes from? Even if you discount the belief-based answers, you still have people differing on where the concept comes from. One person says the Bible itself. Another Zoroastrianism. Yet another claims that the Bible says it cannot come from the Bible.
And then you have the large number of people who cannot help but put their own beliefs in, too. I wish Miller luck, but, save this thread dying, I don’t see people being able to resist very well when even the second answer is an opinion, and then the OP even responds to it.
What does Miller have to do with it, other than being a co-ruler of the Straight Dope’s Hell?
People may differ on where the concept comes from, but most of those answers are still fact-based. I regard the second answer as being well within General Questions territory.
A discussion of the various possible origins of the image of Satan is fine for General Questions. A religious debate on the nature of Satan is not.
Colibri
General Questions Moderator
This may be one of the passages that serves to provide some basis for the myth:
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.’" – Matthew 25:41 (NIV)
But that indicates a future time when ‘the devil and his angels’ will be cast into the eternal fire.
It actually indicates that such has not yet happened.
Especially in context of this:
“Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.” – Revelation 20:14 (NIV)
So, I posit that the entire idea is a construct devised by Milton and expanded upon by Dante with the blessings of Mother Church.
It is needful of any power regime to have an active and present danger to the populace in order to unify and control them. This myth has done quite well for more than 1600 years, I would guess.
The implement held by the devil/Satan is generally thought to originate from the trident of Poseidon/Neptune. Poseidon had his negative side, being the cause of storms at sea and of earthquakes. In turn, Poseidon may have derived his trident from earlier gods of the Middle East or even India.
The pitchfork, as an agricultural implement without this previous symbolic history, is unlikely to have been the origin of Satan’s implement. However, it is easy to see how the original trident could have later been transformed into a pitchfork in popular imagery, since the latter would have been much more familiar to agricultural cultures.
The Greek god Pan, with his horns and goat’s feet, is an obvious source of some of the imagery associated with Satan.
Wrong.
Nifleheim is the land of the dead who have died without honor. It is ruled by Loki’s daughter, Hel.
Make that everyone. The name of Hel’s hall translates as Damp With Sleet. Inside the hall the dishonored are chained to long tables while serpents (and Niddhoggr/Nithhoggar) bite them. It rains, snows, and sleets constantly.
It sounds like Winter in Southeast Alaska, but without the biting serpents and chains.
How do you figure? Let’s say you prepare an eternal fire for the devil and his angels, and after casting 'em in it – well, if it’s eternal, then it’s still burning, right? So you could, years later, refer to casting yet other folks into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels, just as you might someday find yourself putting a different baby in the crib you made for your son, or touring a house that was built for Thomas Jefferson, or whatever.
That, at least, I’m certain isn’t the correct answer, given that Dante preceded Milton by a few centuries.