Where are the "Reform Muslims?"

Great Debates
81

An outstanding example of a person taking too few bits of information and leaping over the Grand Canyon to a bad end (conclusion).

Col uses xtian/xtianity for the same reason that he uses a lot of shortened words and abbreviations–he types in a hurry and hates using long words when there are shorter series of keystrokes that will convey the same meaning. (In this thread, alone, he has used evac. for “evacuation,” w/o for “without,” diff for “different,” and his favorite ex- to mean “derived from” (in sometimes jarring contrast to the more typical usage meaning “former”). Since he was born, raised, and educated in the U.S. (with some additional studies outside that country), an attempt to smear his erudition based on a false claim that he was educated in Saudi Arabia looks rather silly. (A fairly modest amount of lurking would have allowed you to avoid both of these risisble conclusions. You might also want to consider your blanket condemnation of all Saudi education as a point that needs correction. Neither Oxford nor Harvard are seriously challenged, there, at the moment, and some elementary education can be problematic, but one can get an education in S.A.)

82

By the way, even if you find xtian offensive, that certainly doesn’t imply you should be free to use another potentially offensive term, does it?

You’re not going to offend Collounsbury by “retaliating” that way, as he isn’t a Muslim. But you may well end up making yourself look provincial.

  • Tamerlane
83

Amusing, AOB, really very amusing.

Let me give a bit of… well I won’t say friendly advice, but advice. When in a hole, stop digging.

The explanations of the very Xian derivation and usage of Xian are already provided.

Your contention that it is a bigotted usage reflects the same level of knowledge as your many equally baseless contentions regarding the Islamic world, and indeed your continued use of the word Mohammedan which fairly reeks of stale and outdated bigotry.

I might add I have a very expensive private school education rather far from the sandy wastes of Saudi Arabia. New England-Middle States you know.

84

Damned with faint praise.

85

I meant that as outright praise. I for one do value your insights - heck, you’ve even opened my eyes to a few things about my own culture!

86

Ah, here it is.

The non-Muslim minorities also exercised a measure of legal autonomy. The Christian archbishops adjudicated property and other disputes brought before them by their respective communities. The Jews, especially jealous of their comprehensive religious law, maintained a rabbinical court ( Heb. ** bet din* ) headed by a single judge. It settled matters of marriage, divorce, and inheritance, notarized business transactions, and adjudicated property disputes. A communal notary ( Heb. sofer ) drew up deeds and marriage contracts in accordance with legal norms. In many matters, including even intracommunal disputes, the Jews did resort to the shari’a court. The rabbis conceded to the need to abide by state law, but encouraged their flock to follow Jewish law whenever possible, even if it proved less favorable to their case than the shari’a. Out of respect for this religious obligation some Muslim businessmen had property disputes with Jews settled before the Jewish court in accordance with Jewish law. The Jewish judge in the late eighteenth century, Ephraim Laniado, described this as a fairly common occurence during his time on the bench.*

Regarding the shari’a court:

The pattern of verdicts rules out a decided court bias in favor of the strong and powerful. Government officials, members of distinguished families, ulama, and ashraf all lost cases to their social inferiors. Chrisians and Jews often prevailed over Muslims in litigation. In 1778 representatives of the Christians went to court to seek judicial protection against new dress restrictions that had been imposed on their community by the interim governor despite an official edict from Istanbul confirming their existing dress code. Confronted by the qadi, the interim governor backed down. Mustafa Bey, the son of a pasha, sued a Christian for debt and lost for lack of evidence; wtnesses he brought proved false and were disqualified. Ibrahim Effendi ibn Ishir Agha, in charge of the cheese tax farm in the city, was taken to court in 1757 by Jews who proved successfully that he was overtaxing them. Without official permission, the qadi reminded the revenue farmer, he could not alter the tax rates. A Muslim who made false claims against three Jews with the intent of harassing them suffered flogging by order of the judge.

The above from pgs. 108 & 112 of The Middle East on the Eve of Modernity: * Aleppo in the Eighteenth Century* by Abraham Marcus ( 1989, Colombia University Press ).

Again, highly recommended and, I should note, not an apologia. For example he does go into some detail on the second-class status of non-Muslims in Aleppo ( they comprised ~20% of the population in the eighteenth century ).

  • Tamerlane
87

Well, just think, it could be worse. I’ve certainly seen Collounsbury get quite grumpy about the less than optimally accurate use of the word “reform” to describe less hardcore and/or literalist levels of Muslim religious observance. I was even the victim of said grumpiness in this thread:

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=2492046#post2492046

(Not that I hold a grudge or anything; I’ve long since gotten over it, but not forgotten it, for better or worse.) So to those who are busy slamming him at the moment, the virtual rhetoric has indeed been toned down. Although I do wish he would refrain from applying critical words to those who are not knowledgeable about a particular topic but are honestly trying to remedy the situation, no matter how near and dear the topic to his heart.

Some of us, myself included, have merely been victims of the tendency of the U.S. primary and secondary educational systems to completely ignore anything that takes place east of Germany or south of the Equator and/or the Straits of Gibraltar, and are left with no choice but to spend the rest of our lives playing catchup. If we want to fight our own ignorance, we have to start somewhere, and sometimes I’ve come to the realization that my own ignorance on a particular topic is so vast that I don’t know how or where to begin chipping away at the edges. How do you read a book before posting if you don’t have any way of knowing which books are good and which are crap? At least give the poor OP credit for trying.

(Oh, and by the way, Messrs. Tamerlane and **Collounsbury, ** and anyone else who cares to contribute, where is that recommended reading list on Islam and MENA affairs you promised lo these many months ago?)

88

Ahem.

First, I would say that I don’t believe it is a bad thing for people diving into a subject to at the very least do a modicum of background reading, if only on the message board. I don’t care to cover the same ground over and over. As I said, I am not a teacher.

Second, reading list, perhaps I will work on it this weekend, departing for presently. However I note that in that very thread linked there is a fine reading list which should get you started.

Third, I hardly think I was that harsh in that thread, all things considered. I have a somewhat brutal mode of expression, perhaps, by default.

Finally, I frankly think tolerating this AOB person should get me some fucking baraka even with the Fan Club.

89

BTW Tamerlane, by dear sower of destruction and the like, perhaps you could do the honors of the Cafe Thread - i believe some copy past from that linked thread should get things going. When I get back from weekend I’ll add some French sources like Roy and some Maghrebine things.

90

**Collounsbury, ** I know, I said I’d gotten over it, didn’t I? And in that very thread admitted that I was perhaps a tad hypersensitive because I was just then hacking my lungs up in small bloody chunks, aided by a rather nasty pharmaceutical cocktail? And you will note that I did go out and buy a couple of books, and have plowed my way through those and some others on less directly related fields in the interim. But it takes more than a couple of books, or even a semester college-level survey course, to create a solid knowledge base. And in any case I don’t think there should be a prerequisite of a university-level course in Islamic theological history to post a GQ, or even a GD.

But let’s face it, that list was only a few items, and mostly general survey-type texts in nature. I don’t think anything there would allow a person to conduct a knowledgeable debate on all modernizing movements within Islam. I’d love to see an expansion of the list, and others have echoed the sentiment on various occasions, notably in your Grand Return thread. IIRC there was even a small movement to have such a list stickied in Café Society for the duration of U.S. intervention in Iraq.

(And yes, even I, of the Grand Lack of Islamic Knowledge, am getting rather annoyed at the refusal of certain posters to accept viewpoints that deviate from their own, especially when they are based on actual factual knowledge and experience. I find a nice, soothing cup of herbal tea helps, but you may prefer something stronger.)

91

Collounsbury and Tamerlane have done very good jobs all over the boards in explaining Islam, so I really don’t think it’s all that necessary to rehash all of that stuff. Of course, Alan Owes Bess hasn’t checked any of the stuff he’s denouncing, albeit a denunciation disguised as an “innocent question.” As noted above, the tell-tale use of an insulting term shows that the source is probably a discredited source (Can you say “Chick?”).

How about it, Alan Owes Bess? What’re your primary references? Did you read an interpretation of the Qur’an? Have you actually read any translations of the Hadith? Do you understand anything at all about Islamic Jurisprudence? You’ve cast a number of assertions here and provided no actual sources for them. That’s bad form, to say the least.

92

Alan OB

Oh God…

That is all one can give as comment on such incredible ignorance.

And as rightfully brought forward by both Tamerlane and Collounsbury - and I can go along with the brief comments and explanations they gave about the issues raised here in general, brief and therefore incomplete by necessity; we aren’t here in a classroom - : The issues you bring up without placing them in historical context are by lack of this nothing but unsubstantianal rants about issues you have not the slightest idea about, let be that you would have “insight”.

Salaam. A.

93

Alan OB

Oh God…

That is all one can give as comment on such an incredible “statement”. The internet “accurate information source”. Such a brilliant reasoning.
Shall I give you some Internet “accuracy” about Christianity, Judaism, Budhism, New Age, Witches, Satanists, England, the USA, Australia, Europe, UFO’s, Start Trek… Whatever?

That can become very funny.
Salaam. A.

And as rightfully brought forward by both Tamerlane and Collounsbury - and I can go along with the brief comments and explanations they gave about the issues raised here in general, brief and therefore incomplete by necessity; we aren’t here in a classroom - : The issues you bring up without placing them in historical context are by lack of this nothing but unsubstantial rants about issues you have not the slightest idea about, let be that you would have “insight”.

Salaam. A.

94

Sorry for the double posting, this server seems to be sometimes very slow.

And if someone is interested in reading an outstanding study published in the English language, handling about the problems of the MENA region, I can recommend the following work:

A Political Economy of The Middle East,
Second Edition
Alan Richards and John Waterbury
Westview Press, Oxford - Boulder, Colorado.
ISBN 0-8133-2411-4

It’s not only about economics of course. It’s a most excellent study that brings up a variety of different yet intertwined factors.
And although the sitiuation in a country like Iraq has drastically changed lately, and although the second edition saw light a few years before the 9/11 events which will have an ongoing impact, and although the authors didn’t include the influence of several very influential outside factors , this work is the most outstanding study I’ve seen so far.
This work is valued by many in the field, in so far that it has since two years its place at the university where I studied where it is used as addition to course documents.

As for those interested in Islamic culture and Empire and how it was possible that the Islamic world came in the underdog position it holds now, there is this excellent work:

What went wrong?
Western Impact and Middle Eastern Response.
Bernard Lewis.
Publisher Weidenfeld & Nicholson

I only have the reference here of the paperback edition, published by Phoenix: ISBN 0 75381 675 x

You don’t have to agree always with Lewis but his works are in any case interesting and insightful.
And this one in particular is a very good one to read for people who aren’t informed yet interested to discover certain patterns of this part of Islamic History.

Salaam. A

95

For further information:

Yes, talking about Muslims using “Mohammedians” is not only insulting. It is an impossibility inherent to the very core of the religion Islam. Muslims aren’t "followers of Muhammed"like is intented to describe by using that word. Of course the Prophet is the most outstanding example to follow for a Muslim in order to become the best Muslim possible (and that is why over-valuation of Sunna and Hadith became possible), but Muslims only follow and worship God.
Talking about Muslims as “Muhammedians” only shows the person using that word to be completely ignorant of the religion named Islam.

Christians are rightfully called Christians since following Christ -considering Jesus to be the son of God- is the very core of the religion.
It can be - as explained here - that in the English language there is a history of using Xtianity and Xtians with no denegrating/insulting intention at all. Yet I shall never make use of this because to me it does feel as insulting.

Salaam. A

96

collounsbury,

I’m glad you think everything’s peachy down in the House of Islam, I’m not so sure.

No, my attitude to Islam isn’t bigotry or contempt, more weary exasperation. I know maybe between 100 - 200 muslims. Maybe you don’t have to listen to them droning on endlessly about halal this and haram that, but I do.

I’ve even taken to talking to them whilst munching on a ham sandwich or a pork pie just to annoy them. I know I shouldn’t but sometimes I get overcome by the dark side and I think “must…annoy…religious…person”. It’s like I lose all self-control.

I haven’t said anything here that I haven’t said to them face to face. And they come out with much the same sorts of arguments that you and Tamerlane come out with. Please understand it’s the ideology I don’t like, not individual muslims who are like anyone else - some good, some bad.

Anyway, I know that a lot of the things I mentioned in my above post aren’t currently going on but isn’t it the case that they are part of Islam? The only reason they aren’t happening now is because most muslim countries aren’t “islamic” enough. The ideas may lie dormant for periods but they are still there, in the background.

You say that these things aren’t happening but I’ve read reports that in parts of Iran non-muslim shopkeepers have to display a sticker in their window to indicate that they aren’t muslim. Then of course we have those good old boys the Taliban, who forced Hindus to wear yellow armbands.

So such things do pop up in the muslim world from time to time. Tamerlane mentioned the thugs in Egypt who are demanding the jezyah from non-muslims. Tamerlane, you guessed well, it was Egypt that I was thinking of when I mentioned the jezyah. I’ve read articles from a (western) journalist on the plight of Christians in Egypt. Apparently when these people come to collect the tax they don’t even bother to bring the sticks with them any more - people pay up because they know what happens if they don’t.

And I’m unclear on what the Egyptian governments position is on this?

Getting back to human rights, I believe it is the case that Iran executes more people than any other country apart from China. And when I say “more people” I mean that literally not per capita. Yet compare the population of Iran to China.

Tamerlane,

You say that cutting off the hands of a thief is analogous to the death penalty in the US. Well I disagree with the death penalty for the same reasons - what if they’re innocent?

But in any case the death penalty is only used for serious cases (murder). I would say that there is a difference between murder and theft, wouldn’t you?

Also, cutting off a thief’s hands is counter-productive. Once that thief has no hands, how is he supposed to get a job and become a productive member of society? Cutting off the hands of thieves means that you are accepting that there is no place for rehabilition in the criminal justice system. I’m not accepting that.

Theft is of course a reprehensible crime but if someone steals from me, I’m happy that they go to prison for a while and learn the error of their ways. I don’t particularly see the need to cut off their hands.

A truly committed thief would probably still find ways to steal anyway, even with no hands.

But in general, a person with no hands would find it hard to get a job so they are reduced to begging/illegal activities/ living off the state.

I’d rather let them keep their hands and try and teach them that theft is wrong. I don’t know about you?

My problem with Islam is that the reason Islam proscribes the cutting off of hands is simply because that’s what the book says. The book says “cut off the hands” so that’s what they must do. There seems to be no room for debate on the merits of such action. Islam seems to leave little room for manouvre in terms of evolving human ideas.

The Koran was written in the 7th Century and therefore Islam is a 7th Century belief system. It was NOT written by God, it was written by a bunch of Arabs out in the desert but because it purports to be the direct word of God then how can it evolve? I note your optimism but I’m just not entirely sure what evidence you ground your optimism on. Believe me, I hope you are right.

By the way, wasn’t the historical Tamerlane a bad guy?

97

I get the point that most accusations against Muslims are based on outdated or poorly interpreted material.

I understand that Islam is not the only religion that venerates ancient rites.

I know that there are some extremely archaic and brutal mitzvoth in Jewish religious books.

While Christian religion looks clean on paper, many atrocities were committed in its name.

Those are things of the past that most modern people like to think are left safely behind us.

I think it is obvious that current animosity to Islam in the West is based precisely on the fact that most people are afraid that barbaric past is trying to come back into the world through Islam. Every time Islam was allowed to dominate large groups of people or the whole countries nowadays, the results were Iran, Taleban, Al Quaida and such; never anything modern, fresh or original. Islamic culture used to be stimulating to the rest of the world in the golden ages of Islam; whatever we know of modern Islamic culture is depressing at best and often quite frightening.

Is it not true that all the positive changes (in modern Western view) in Islamic countries were made under pressure from the West and their roots remain weak and uncertain?

98

Not a matter of peachy-keen IMO. But your implication that its hopeless is rather more off the mark.

Eh, I once again call “No True Scotsman” on this. The implication that *real[/iu] Muslims would be like such-and-such is unwarranted in my view. Real Muslims are all over the map and are not necessarily any less Muslim than any other, i.e. the conception that the only real Muslim, like the only real Christian, is a scripture-thumping firebreather is erroneous.

Non-Muslims are discriminated against in Iran in certain ways, but I’ve never heard that one ( the State Dept. report for one doesn’t mention it and they’re usually pretty good on those things ). I doubt that’s government proscribed, even if true.

Sure. Atavistic throwbacks that even the Iranian mullahs detested. Again, pointing at extremists as being the purest symbol of Islam is not necessarily a strong argument.

Absolutely.

Sure. Just like the Mafia. Once again, extremists ( in this case criminal extremists looking for an easy extortion racket )

Their position is that it is illegal and given that the same thugs tend to be opposed to the government, the government tends to imprison, torture, and shoot them.

So? Who’s defending Iran?

I agree.

I agree again. Though I didn’t go into it before, once again the interpretation that a thief’s hands be cut off is not universal in Islam ( some say it just calls for marking them ). Just like stoning adulterers it has never been a universal practice in Islam and likely never will be.

But no, I don’t agree with that sort of Abrahamic punishment. I’m not a religious guy and I find some facets of Islam ( and Christianity, and Judaism, and most other religions ) farcical and even mildly offensive.

But your seeming insistence that Islam is irredeemably the sum of its harshest tendencies just doesn’t fly with me.

Not necessarily, see above.

Nonsense. This sort of stuff is debated endlessly in Islamic circles and has been throughout its history.

Nonsense, again. IMHO from reading history. YMMV.

History and my interpretation of it. I’m sure some disagree.

They’re wrong of course ;).

Misunderstood. A great one for children’s tea-parties and balloons, was Timur. That and skulls.

Great big stacks of skulls.

And balloons.

“Pressure?” Hmmm…Depends on your definition. I think “influence” would be more appropriate in some respects, though it would vary depending on the period and circumstances.

And, no, actually, not entirely - I’d say Islam already had some positive traits from a western perspective.

As to the weakness of westernization, there is something to that. Or at least the weakness of secularism, which has fallen on hard times. But I consider that less a matter of incompatability with Islam, than the historical legacy of the past century. IMHO, anyway.

Eva Luna - Thy will be done. I don’t claim its a masterpiece.

  • Tamerlane
99

Thanks, Timur, Hun. :wink:

100

Folk–

The debate in this thread seems to me generally productive. Thanks to some useful cites, I have found the specific answer to my OP question.

I myself have never run across the use of “X” as a substitute for “Christ-”, except in a negative or repressive context. Specifically, I have been in situations in which those objecting to terms like “Christmas vacation” were pushing for “Xmas vacation” as a nonoffensive substitute. In other words, persons offended by “Christ-” viewed “X” as a negotiated compromise excising the offensive idea, not an alternative but equivalent representation.

I have never happened across the use of Xian or Xianity as a respectful form of Christian or Christianity: not in the daily news, the magazines, a variety of contemporary books on religion (all religions). As people I respect are informing me otherwise, I will accept that it CAN be used inoffensively. But such use does not appear to be widespread in the United States.

So I was wrong about the “X”.

Likewise, there may be cases in which remarks or questions about putative practices in self-described Islamic states arise, not from willful ignorance and a desire to wound, but from sources of information that IN FACT are incomplete or misinterpreted, but in a way such that the error is systematically reinforced, rather than quickly disclosing itself. IMHO, it is better for such innocent misconception to be brought out in the open for polite correction, rather than being quick on the draw with “do the research first, or you’re a bigot.”

A closing thought: nothing can hide the contribution Islam has made to the intellectual and artistic development of the world.