Where Does the Old Covenant really End?

Great Debates
#1

The Old Covenant obviously doesn’t end with Malachi because the Mosaic Law was fully in place and operational throughout Mark, Mathew, Luke and John. Indeed, Christianity had not arrived upon the scene by Acts.

Salvation according to the death, burial and resurrection was totally unheard of anyplace in the gospels and the only means of salvation was Judaism or (in the case of Gentiles) becoming a Jewish proselyte.

So where did salvation (apart from the Law) come into being? Contrary to the preachers and theologians, it had to be sometime after the gospels.

#2

There is no concept of salvation in Jewish law. Jews aren’t saved any more or less than anyone else - there was just a special relationship and thus special obligations. Thus there is no attempt to convert anybody.

#3

As noted, “salvation” is not even a Jewish concept, per se. So, the concept of salvation began no later than the ministry of Paul, since it is found in his letters. Beyond that, it is in Paul’s letters that the first references that indicate some concept of supersession appear.

Without getting into any discussion of the relevance or accuracy of the notion that the Law was ever superseded, it was clearly a working premise no later than Paul’s letter to the Romans, (around 58), long before the Gospels were written, (with Mark’s being the first, around 70).

#4

The priestly-sacrificial-Temple aspect of the Mosaic phase of the Old Covenant ended definitively according to many Christians or was suspended indefinitely according to Temple-expectant Jews in 70 AD with the destruction of the Temple.

The idea that Gentiles had to convert to Judaism to share in the blessings of the World to Come is not in the Hebrew Scriptures. Being an Ethical Monotheism (There is one Supreme God & He wants us to treat each other decently) and keeping the General Law to humanity (“The Seven Laws of Noah”) seemed to be enough.

#5

Buddy, I can end a fifth of Old Covenant in five minutes, whenever and wherever you shay! hic

#6

Jesus tell us in Matthew 26:28
This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.
Luke 22:20
This cup is the new covenantin my blood…

This is the New Covenant in Christ and it happened at the Cross.
The previous Covenant would then be replaced.
Certainly there are many that didn’t accept the New Covenant.
Can you imagine the shock when Jesus told his apostle’s to drink his BLOOD!

#7

What of Matthew 5:17-19? Wouldn’t those seem to indicate that there wasn’t meant to be much of a change at all?

#8

In mainstream Christian theology, the dispensation of grace (the new covenant) began more or less at the moment of Jesus’ physical death and was marked by the symbolic destruction of the temple veil. The accounts of Matthew and Luke differ slightly about the exact timing of the event;

In ancient Jewish custom, the large and heavy curtain in the temple was the barrier between the common areas and the “holy of holies” - the room where only the high priest was allowed during those times when he was said to be in direct contact with God while performing sacrifices to expedite forgiveness of the populace’s sins.
The high priest was the only mortal allowed this intimate contact with God, and the only one who could dispense forgiveness and “cleansing” of the people. And of course, only Jews were allowed to participate in the ceremony. Any ordinary person who dared to peek behind the curtain would, according to legend, be instantly struck down.

Jesus, at the moment of his death became both the ultimate symbolic sacrifice and the permanent high priest/intercessor for all mankind, negating the need for a human priest and ritual blood sacrifices as well as rescinding the “Jews only” ordinance. The rending of the temple curtain symbolized the beginning of a new dispensation, the opening up of the holy of holies whereby any person could approach the godhead directly by praying to Jesus Christ, the new and improved (and highly egalitarian) high priest without the necessity of being Jewish or going through all that rigamarole with the sacrificial lamb, begging the priest for absolution, etc.
SS

#9

The Covenant ended? I must’ve missed that memo.

#10

Salvation is not a Jewish concept? I don’t understand. I have always thought that the relationship between God and the Jews WAS their salvation. (?) If a Jew chose to leave the tribe, marry a Gentile and cease observance of the Law, wouldn’t he then “lose” his salvation?

“… they were without God and without hope in the world…”

I have always assumed that Jews who kept the Law until death and considered righteous went to “Paradise” and those who were “cut off” then went to Hades.

If so, wouldn’t this be God’s plan of “salvation” in the Old Covenant?

#11

As I have come to understand, God persevered with His people through 3 major events:

  1. When the people refused to be ruled by God and wanted a king (denial of God, the Father)

  2. Crucifixion of Christ Jesus (denial of God, the Son - Messiah)

  3. Stoning of Stephen while he was still under the Spirit (denial of God, the Holy Spirit)

According to scripture, God then told the Jews that they were “lo ammi” (not His people) and salvation by circumcision, diet, tithe, observance of holy days, etc. - the Law - was eventually phased out as a means of establishing a relationship with Him.

Jesus was a Jew who taught the Law to His Jewish disciples. “I have come to none but the lost sheep of the House of Israel…”

Apparently God’s plan to make priests of the House of Israel to take Judaism to the rest of the world - the Gentile nations was abandoned in favor of a new plan of salvation that required no circumcision, tithe, water baptism, (in general the Law) that Paul was taught by the risen Christ.

As I understand it… the New Covenant will be made with the same nation as the Old Covenant… with Israel… His Covenant nation… sometime in the future ages to come.

Certainly, we who live today have made no covenant with God.

(?)

#12

Did you come up with this through your own study or did you learn this from someones & if so, who?
From an observant Jewish perspective, as best as I can tell, the Covenant to Israel has certainly not ended. Certain aspects of it, such as the Priestly-Sacrificial & Gov’t-National laws, are presently in suspension until the Temple is rebuilt, the Priesthood re-authorized, the Sanhedrin re-seated, and perhaps Messiah comes, but it is no more ended than it was ended when Babylon conquered Judah & destroyed the Temple.
Jews who keep the Covenant best they can (worship God, care for others, keep the Israelite-Gentile distinctives of Sabbath-Festivals-Kosher etc, and strive to keep Torah) have a share in the World to Come (perhaps Paradise now & then Resurrection into the Messianic Kingdom), as do Gentiles who keep to the Noachic Laws. Jews who do not do the above will have to work out whatever God requires of them in Gehinnom (a Purgatorial type of ‘Hell’).

From THIS Christians’ perspective- the Older Covenant (in its various phases- Adamic, Noachic, Abrahamic, Mosaic, Davidic etc) is killed & resurrected in the person of the GodMan Jesus. The “New Covenant” is the “Older Covenant” now with Jesus as Prophet, Priest, King & LORD God. The transition phase was roughly 30-70 AD- the “Generation” of Matthew 24. Salvation is in Jesus exclusively but not exclusively for Christians alone. And the Jewish people & national Israel have a major role in the growing world Messianic Kingdom which could happen a myriad of ways.

#13

Like Saul and especially David?

A Son of God is absurd in Judaism (at least since Noah.) The Messianic prophecies are very precise, and Jesus did not fulfill them.

Maybe not you, but I did when I was a kid. You might want to reread the Bible, in a non-Christian translation, to get what the prophecies actually say. At least listen to Friar Ted who has it righter than you do.

#14

I can imagine Judas at the last supper.

“Will you stop it with the Bela Lugosi impressions already? Drink your blood? This is Judea, not Transylvania you nitwit. And take off that cape! And the fangs.
That’s it, I’m walkin’.”

Yes, I’ve been listening to a lot of Lenny Bruce recently.

#15

I have read the comments of Friar Ted with much interest. I am not pushing anyone to think differently, but only trying as best I can to gain a better personal understanding. I am here to learn, not to provoke. I appreciate the comments that have been offered in seriousness and pertinence.

#16

Okay, in more detail.
While during the period of Judges there was no King, God listened to the wish of the people for a king, and through Samuel chose Saul. While he was a bit of a washout, David certainly wasn’t, and you’ll notice that the Messiah is supposed to be a descendant of David. The NT gives two conflicting genealogies showing that Jesus was.

The reason I suggest a non-Christian version is that some (not all) Christian translations use words to support the NT story, not the most accurate translation. The “virgin” in Isaiah is the most famous example.

I went to Hebrew School for five years and to Temple a lot - and Hell was not mentioned once. Not even to scare us. During Yom Kippur we prayed to be written into the book of life for the next year, in other words, to not die. That’s as close as it comes to salvation. You can see this even in the NT - “The wages of sin are death” - not hell, death.
Try reading the Bible without Christian preconceptions, and you’ll find it very interesting.
To be honest, I don’t believe any more for a variety of reasons, but none of them have anything to do with dislike of what I’ve been taught.

#17

This appears to be a Christian, not Jewish, view of Judaism.

You might want to wander through this older thread for a few different perspectives. (Please note that even within Judaism there are different views, so you are not going to find a solitary, unified message. However, the absence of “salvation” references or any sort of soteriology should be apparent from that thread.)

This, again, is a specifically Christian belief–and one not actually held by all that many Christians–so referring to it in a discussion of Judaism is not going to be very fruitful.

Point 1 was simply one of many, many rejections of God, (not “the Father” of the Christian Trinity), by the Jews–as their own traditions attest, starting with the Golden Calf and continuing through the various unrighteous kings documented in the books of Kings and Chronicles, to say nothing of the majority of writings of the Prophets.
Point 2 is irrelevant to anyone who is Jewish.
Point 3 is something that I have never even encountered before in Christian theology.

#18

It sounds familiar. I have heard a similar point made that the Judean rejection of the Spirit occurred with the rejection of Paul & his declaration that from then on, his mission would be to the Gentiles. I notice that MysteryMan includes water baptism as an obsolete aspect of the Old Covenant. That is a doctrine in a fringe-fringe movement known as Hyper-Dispensationalism.

OK, the link references John Nelson Darby as teaching the stoning of Stephen was a pivotal point in ending the Jewish Dispensation & also that the “New Covenant” is not the Christian faith but the future conversion of Israel.

Btw, I am certainly under Covenant- my parents entrusted me to Christ’s Covenant at my infant Catholic baptism, I renewed that at age 13 by my accepting Christ as Lord & Savior & officiated it by my immersion Baptism in the Christian & Missionary Alliance Church.

#19

From which Christian sect did you learn of this list?

#20

I think perhaps it might help in discussion if I offer some background of where I’m coming from. I grew up in an atheist home amid some rather harsh conditions. I too, was atheistic for many years.

The contact that I had from professing “Christians” were my teachers in a rural public school. Yet these Christian believers taught evolution and anti-Christian values to thousands of young children. Obviously, their salaries were of far greater importance than their personal convictions so that was their testimony. Their convictions merited no consideration and also were of many theological persuasions.

The term “Christian” is a broad brush. They include Catholic, Baptist, Lutheran, Mormon, Nazarene, Unitarian, Pentecostal and thousands upon thousands of other religions and denominations that cannot agree on the first “Christian” principle – that of salvation.

Their teachers span from Bishop Fulton Sheen to Oral Roberts, Herbert Armstrong, Billy Graham, John Calvin, etc. etc. They teach every conceivable idea ever come to man.

Their various religions seem to be tailored for the greatest personal benefit for their teachers and their organizations with little regard for truth or integrity. They are primarily commercial institutions that prey upon the masses of the unlearned.

Moving along, I realized my mortality and began questioning if there might possibly be something beyond the grave. (Not likely, but worthy of investigation.) In a sense you might say that when I looked, I saw the “hand of God.”

I saw a dead, dried-up seed emerge into life with a root hunting downward for the soil and the sprout turning green and reaching for light. The sprout split apart into two leaves. Under magnification I could see nutrients flowing through tiny veins within the new plant. (Just an accident of nature?)

I looked for the beginning of life – the primordial ooze that produced simple, one-celled animals. Under magnification, I saw a protozoa moving about within a drop of water. It could ingest and digest food and it displayed fear of its enemies, running away by its own locomotion. And it procreated by the dividing of its nucleus, into two identical, perfectly formed single celled animals. (Simple? No – astoundingly complex and a miracle within itself.)

So I began going to various churches and sat under the teaching of many, many teachers that all taught conflicting BASIC doctrines. (Which doesn’t seem to bother them because they routinely meet for a “Pastor’s Luncheon” where they discuss the numbers they’re running and their baptisms.) I couldn’t find a reputable, God – fearing teacher in the lot.

So I acquired a KJV bible, a NAS bible, a Book of Mormon, a Dake commentary, a Strong’s and a Vine’s and began reading. In the bibles, I started at Genesis and was convinced by 2nd Kings that the God of Abraham was indeed the intelligent force responsible for all that I was seeing in nature.

If a genuine understanding of the scriptures is to be discovered, I’m sure the keys to finding it depends to large degree upon understanding more about Judaism and God’s chosen nation since the majority of the bible is written to, about and for Israel.

I have never known anyone of the Jewish faith personally, but only in passing on a few rare occasions and I’m not a bible scholar, having worked my whole life in automotive manufacturing. I’ve been forced to take upon this task of study (one that I’m not particularly well suited) for lack of finding many teachers having integrity, but only having an interest in power and money.

Hey, I know my days are numbered and I’m already in the autumn of my years and moving into winter. I’m not looking further into mainstream Christianity groups where the big numbers are represented and truth is twisted and turned. Throughout the bible it has been the large groups that have chosen destruction, while only the smallest ‘remnants’ sought righteousness and found favor with God. Those who aim to take refuge in the large organizations seem to be in the greatest peril, historically.

As I have said, I’m not here to provoke or demean anyone else. I’m only trying to find my own way through this world and to hopefully find favor with God at the end of it.

The “list of 3 events” was something I first heard from Curt Crist, in Hendersonville, NC.

http://www.welcometograce.com/