I don’t misunderstand anything. I quoted the Bank of England saying exactly what you just rephrased. I then pointed out that anyone trying to claim that a debt paid in Scottish notes wasn’t settled would be laughed out of court.
By contrast, when Captain Ridley’s Shooting Party said that Scots Law had no concept of legal tender, you said he was wrong. So quote any part of Scots Law dealing with legal tender, please.
Throughout the United Kingdom, coins valued 1 pound, 2 pounds, and 5 pounds Sterling are legal tender in unlimited amounts. Twenty pence pieces and fifty pence pieces are legal tender in amounts up to 10 pounds; five pence pieces and ten pence pieces are legal tender in amounts up to 5 pounds; and pennies and two pence coins are legal tender in amounts up to 20 pence.[23] In accordance with the Coinage Act 1971,[24] gold sovereigns are also legal tender for any amount. Although it is not specifically mentioned on them, the face values of gold coins are 50p; £1; £2; and £5, a mere fraction of their worth as bullion.
Maundy money is legal tender but may not be accepted by retailers and is worth much more than face value due to its rarity value and silver content.
Bank of England notes are legal tender in England and Wales and are issued in the denominations of £5, £10, £20 and £50. They can always be redeemed at the Bank of England even if discontinued. Banknotes issued by Scottish and Northern Irish banks are not legal tender anywhere in England and Wales but can still be accepted with agreement between parties.[25] Whilst banknotes issued by the Scottish banks are legal currency, that is approved by the UK Parliament, no banknotes issued by Scottish banks, Northern Irish banks or the Bank of England are legal tender in Scotland. Thus legal tender in Scotland is limited to coin as noted above, however notes issued by Scottish banks fall into a special category of promissory notes and are freely accepted within Scotland.
Only smaller coins up to a certain limit, Maundy money, and coins denominated in pounds are legal tender in Scotland.
Bank of England notes are legal tender in England and Wales.
See my above post. Only coin is legal tender in Scotland. Your quote merely said that notes were not.
Gosh, that’s astonishing. It’s like, Scotland’s been part of a Union for a very long time, and still had its own laws and identity respected in that Union, and hasn’t been lorded over by the English at all!
Better expressed by the right of the previous independent state to do things such as maintain its unique mixture of Common and Roman Law for criminal matters, different civil and administrative law, and the right to issue its own currency. These are a couple of matters that makes Scots feel that they are more than a part of the UK like its regions, setting it apart from Yorkshire or even Wales.
What I enjoy in reading pjen is how the facts and the statements can change and deform while she clings to her sense of wrong despite being shown to have not a foundation as from this discussion of the notes. it is very impressive as a performance, even if it is transparent. I have learned in these threads that no statement from her can be trusted.
Yeah, my mistake.
FFS, Scotland does not issue its own currency. There has been no “right” to any such thing retained in Scotland. How many times does this need repeating? Scottish bank notes are promissory notes. They have a completely different status within the UK to Bank of England notes which are actually issued by the central bank of the UK. Private bank notes were common throughout the entirety of the UK at one point, including England. You’re interpreting an anachronism that died out elsewhere yet carried on in Scotland and Northern Ireland as a “right” to issue currency. It isn’t. There’s only one entity in the UK that does that, and it’s the Bank of England.
It should be noted that the Bank of England does not refer to “English” notes, but rather “Bank of England” notes. It does however refer to “Scottish” notes:
http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/banknotes/pages/about/faqs.aspx
I guess your first answer to that would be “well of course they do, but they don’t refer to them that way in Scotland, they call them ‘English’ notes”. Well apparently the Committee of Scottish Bankers refers to “Bank of England” notes and “Scottish” notes:
http://www.scotbanks.org.uk/legal_position.php
http://www.scotbanks.org.uk/media/sni_notes_factsheet_feb14.pdf
Load of rubbish. There is a pile on going on and I am using the ignorance of the people doing it to expose their lack of understanding.
I admit that I do lay bait for the bullies such as Steophan and his woeful knowledge of the British State, or the false statements from others about the difficulty of spending Scottish pounds or the status of English and Scottish currency, but in each case I start from provable facts and let people just jump onto the elephant traps I set. I may be extremely annoying, but I am correct to the letter. If people fail to distinguish between coin and notes, or between single instances or generalities, or specific facts versus the general belief, then that is their problem.
What has happened here is the emotionalisation of debate where people are so offended by someone failing to agree to their world view that they lose sight of a quest for the truth and engage in the game of just trying to prove their adversary wrong in some manner, even if that in wolves false accusations (often straw men) and the use of logic chopping to change the import of what they have said.
I suggest that you read back and look at the correct statements I make as bait and how people react to them. I am happy to justify every initial statement.
I am more than willing to engage in rational debate, but when the intention of the chasing pack is to win rather than seek truth, then I feel quite justified in setting my elephant traps.
Indeed.
http://www.scotbanks.org.uk/media/sni_notes_factsheet_feb14.pdf
ETA:
Note the use of “UK coin”.
I am not saying and have never said that Scottish notes are other than sterling and backed by the Bank of England by assets lodged with the BoE. What is the case is that the legal status of Scottish notes differs in several ways from BofE notes.
When Scottish banks print and release notes, what else is it than issuing currency? They issue Scottish notes which are guaranteed eventually by the BofE, but which are not issued by the BofE.
Scottish notes are those issued in Scotland by Scottish Banks
NI notes are those issued in Belfast by NI banks
English notes are those issued in London by the Bank of England.
The Bank of England does not issue Scottish or NI notes. It does guarantee them as exchangeable for English notes of the same value.
You would be well advised to look at the legalese on each type of note where it is issued.
I totally agree that UK coins (without any relevance of their supposed national origin). Are legal tender in all constituent countries of the union.
The Royal Bank of Scotland PLC promise to pay the bearer on demand Twenty Pounds Sterling at their Head Office here in Edinburgh by order of the Board.
I promise to pay the bearer on demand the sum of Fifty Pounds. Chief Cashier. Governor and Company of the Bank of England.
Both used to be a promise to pay in Gold before we left the Gold Standard. They are and were scrip- paper issued backed by other value, once gold, now UK coin backed by the UK economy and deposits.
Well apart from how none of those entities refer to them as “English”.
Let s return to the origin of this argument which was in the series of Elephant Traps I set for Steophan.
I said that it was a false belief that
“It is easy to exchange the British pound Sterling abroad”
He relied that that was a true statement
I said
" NOT SCOTTISH NOTES "
He said
“Utter nonsense”
I said
“Scottish notes are Sterling but difficult to exchange abroad”
Which is exactly what I am still arguing.
Scottish notes are seen as Sterling but are issued by Scottish Banks and guaranteed by the BofE.
Digressions into legal tender were fun (I have done that many times) but have no bearing on the substance of the argument and was introduced as a red herring by others.
So is your complaint, Pjen, that Scottish notes are so obscure that people elsewhere don’t realise they’re acceptable as money within the UK?
The terms used are
Bank of England notes
Banknotes in Scotland
Banknotes in Northern Ireland
The latter two are issued by banks in those locations.
http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/banknotes/Pages/about/scottish_northernireland.aspx
Seven banks in Scotland and Northern Ireland are authorised to issue banknotes. Legislation is in place to ensure that holders of banknotes issued by the authorised banks receive a level of protection similar to that provided to holders of Bank of England notes. In particular, the banks must hold backing assets equivalent to all of their banknotes in circulation, to ensure that if one of the authorised banks were to fail there would be sufficient funds to pay out all noteholders. The Bank of England monitors the seven banks’ compliance with this legislative regime.
The seven authorised banks (or their predecessors) have been regulated with regard to the backing of their banknotes since 1845. Part 6 of the Banking Act 2009 (the Act), which came into effect on 23 November 2009, updated and modernised the framework for commercial note issuance to provide enhanced noteholder protection.
Three banks are authorised to issue banknotes in Scotland:
•Bank of Scotland plc;
•Clydesdale Bank plc; and
•The Royal Bank of Scotland plc.
Four banks are authorised to issue banknotes in Northern Ireland:
•Bank of Ireland (UK) plc [1];
•AIB Group (UK) plc (trades as First Trust Bank in Northern Ireland);
•Northern Bank Limited (trades as Danske Bank); and
•Ulster Bank Limited.
The provisions in the legislation are designed to ensure that holders of banknotes issued by the authorised banks receive a level of protection similar to that provided to holders of Bank of England notes. The Act passed the responsibility for regulating commercial banknote issuance on to the Bank of England. The Bank’s role is limited to matters relating to ensuring that the banks hold sufficient backing assets: it is not responsible for the design of the authorised banks’ banknotes or their robustness against counterfeiting.
I have no complaint. I just note that Scottish notes can be a problem in places that BofE notes are not.