The intervention of America in SA and CA politics had more to do with bananas than bombs. The shame of our support for brutal and repressive regimes there is a stain on our honor we would do well to apologize and amend.
Tried war before. Several times. Does it look like that’s working?
Oh, for heaven’s sake, fight fair, Sam! I’m for anything, however fatuous it may appear to you, that will stop this ungodly clusterfuck before it becomes “one of those damn fool things in the Balkans”. The situation is bad, I don’t pretend it can be instantly made all good, I’m more concerned with preventing it from becoming a catastrophe.
Hey, GeeDubya! Jimmy is sitting by the phone, bags packed. Bill and yer Dad would probably go with, if you asked. Just a thought.
Oh come now. The anti-Israel folks are surely intellectually honest.
I mean, if Israel invaded, occupied, and virtually leveled southern Lebanon in brutal house-to-house fighting, they’d be praising Israel for its restraint in only going after Hezbollah, right?
Just like when Israel hit Gaza after Hamas attacks they were all talking about how noble and restrained it was for Israel to confine its attacks to Gaza.
I mean, obviously, there aren’t intellectually dishonest claims that can never possibly be satisfied by anything less than Israel’s full surrender and submission to genocide. Obviously.
This “anti Israel” crowd, so utterly irrational and devoid of reason? Could you provide some specifics, perhaps? If you can get it in before the Lebanese crush the puny Israeli army under the juggernaut of their invincible military machine?
Sure, if you could provide me with a quote of whichever person claimed that the anti-Israel crows is utterly irrational and devoid of reason.
Or do you honestly contend that the anti-Isreal crowd would actually be praising Israel for its restraint if it invaded south Lebanon and engaged in brutal city-fighting? We wouldn’t be hearing the same claims about “Israeli terrorism”, and how they were involving civilians and not just Hezbollah? You’re honestly going to claim that?
If not, then the anti-Israel claims for ‘restraint’ on Israel’s part are intellectually dishonest, and even if Hezbollah exclusively was being targeted and their state sponsor ignored, we’d still hear the exact same complaints.
I’m sorry, I must’ve missed the relevant portion of international law where a nation starts a war with you, but you’re not allowed to defend yourself or attack their nation back unless their army is more powerful than yours.
So if Israel does that and largely ignores the rest of Lebanon (until the Lebanese army intervenes in order to protect Hezbollah), you’ll be one of the first praising Israel for its restraint, right?
Look, Sam and Finn Again, I know you two have synapses that only fire intermittently when they’re firing at all, and that communication between them is even worse, given that the sparks rarely make it across the rather wide gaps between them, and that this is especially true of those parts where empathy reigns, but just a small fact when y’all talk about Lebanon attacking: I have yet to see a report of the actual Leb army firing a spitball in anger.
Which means that the nation of Lebanon, including the army that Israel lyingly (because if they actually wanted them to do that, they wouldn’t at the same time be bombing them) claims it wants to patrol the border, is being bombarded because of a small border action by Hizbullah. Which is what Hizbullah wanted, of course.
What Israel gets out of it I don’t know, but what the fuck, they can just use the next 2.5 bil us US taxpayers hand over to them to pay the bill anyway, so why should they care?
Carry on.
Disingenuous, wilfully ignorant, obfuscative, or just trolling?
What part of the word ‘proxy’, exactly, confused you?
(And you want to whine about the intellect of others? :rolleyes: )
Lebanon supplies Hezbollah with weapons, finances, and safe haven. Lebanon has gone on record as saying that Hezbollah is a valid tool of their ‘resistance’ against Israel. That makes an Hezbollah attack Lebanon’s responsibility. That means it’s a clear casus belli. That means not only are you varying shades of wilfully ignorant or trolling, but wrong to boot.
Or, in the middle of your wilfully ignoring the fact of Lebanon’s support for Hezbollah, did you somehow buy into the anti-Israel line that a state sponsored proxy force isn’t the responsibility of its state sponsor?
Again, I know that willful ignorance and empty insults are probably going to be your M.O here, but in that vast network of wonderful synaptic activity that you have, has it not occured to you that Israel is not “lyingly” doing anything, but pointing out that Hezbollah’s state sponsor can either crack down on their terrorist proxy force, or be a valid target?
And while we’re at it, I was under the impression that the only Lebanese army positions which were targeted were those that were aiding Hezbollah. You have a cite to contraict this, I’m sure.
You missed out the bit about Egypt wiping residential districts of Tel Aviv off the map with air strikes. Apart from that, great analogy…
And there was me thinking it was all about Maggie being desperate to ensure her re-election. Silly cynical me.
Taxi for Mr Godwin
Firstly, isn’t there the tiny issue of Germany and Italy declaring war on America? Secondly, international law has moved on a little bit in the past sixty years, and to say ‘It was OK for Bomber Harris, so it must be OK for anyone else I agree with’ is just nonsense.
So who’s to say that the Lebanese army isn’t Hizbollah’s bitch? We are given to understand, from unimpeachable sources, clear lines of command from Hizbollah through Beirut to Teheran. The evidence offered us is the honesty and integrity of men who’s dishonesty and lack of integrity has guided us straight into a turd-infested fever swamp.
Permit me my skepticism, even as you refuse to share it.
If the missile is pointed at my family in Haifa? No difference whatsoever.
Tell me, 'Luci has anyone ever threatened your family? Do you know what it’s like to call your mother on a Friday, and then have her hang up because the air raid sirens started and she has to get to the bomb shelter? That happened to me yesterday and I do not intend it to happen again.
Fuck you all, you fucking naive feel-good why-can’t-we all-get-along utopian armchair generals and blind backseat drivers. Stop yapping about things that do not involve you and of which you do not have even a sliver of understanding. Leave us alone and let us look after ourselves.
What I have, or have not, suffered is of no consequence, and even less your beeswax. I don’t presume to judge you even as I scorn your presumption in judging me. I might very well be pleased to “let you look after yourselves”, but such an option is not available. I would be entirely thrilled to have the IDF render Hizbollah a greasy spot in the Godforsaken Desert, heaven knows they deserve nothing better.
But it ain’t that simple. America’s alliance with Israel puts America at risk. Reckless behavior, however justified, may put hundreds of thousands of lives in jeapordy. Jordanian lives, Lebanese, Syrian, American and Israeli, 99% of them entirely innocent.
Will you kill all the Hisbollah? Of course not. Even if you did, would that be the end of them? Take all their weapons, they can’t get more? Kill their soldiers, have they no sons, no brothers? You can kill the enemy, but not the enmity. Paltry and temporary gains from enormous risks.
How many times have you kicked these peoples asses? And what security has it bought you?
Oh, please. HOW many people has Hezbollah killed ? They are no more than an irritation to Israel, not a major threat.
No, they were about America’s utter, amoral ruthlessness and it’s desire to turn those countries into right wing puppets of the US, no matter how many people were murdered, raped and tortured in our name, with our money, and with our weapons.
Hezbollah simply isn’t enough of a threat to justify that kind of death and destruction, either. Leveling southern Lebanon isn’t restraint, either.
Ah, the standard whine of the supporters of Israel; any criticism of them = a call for genocide. By that logic, since you disagree with me you obviously desire to exterminate all of California.
Cut off all American aid for Israel, and then it won’t involve me.
Finn Again, Israel is on record as saying, repeatedly, that they want the Lebanese border to be patrolled by the Lebanese army. But they attack that self-same army.
As for all this bullshit about the Leb government being in cahoots with Hizbullah, well, I do remember last year that Syria was booted out of Lebanon by popular will. But just like in Mexico large parts of the government are still in the hands of the PRI even though they’ve lost the last two Presidential elections, because you can’t get rid of 70 years of history in a mere half-decade and a little bit, so too pro-Syrian, and therefore pro-Hizbullah folks still are in the Lebanese government.
What’s disingenuous is the willful refusal of yourself and the rest in realizing that Hizbullah acted on its own in its border attack on Israel, that it continues to do so, and that separating it from the rest of the populace should have been a goal of Israel, in the same way that we separated the Taliban from the Afghan populace. Raining terror on the entire country when the militia that constitutes the enemy is concentrated in one part of the country makes no sense, unless that’s your answer to everything, in which case you can expect that the army of the nation in question isn’t going to just sit there and take it. Armies aren’t known for doing that.
BTW, one more time, although I have no illusion that it will make it through the dense fortress that protects the working parts of your brain, but if Israel couldn’t disarm Hizbullah from inside the country over the course of nearly twenty years, expecting the weak Leb army to do it is just plain stupid. As you know but are of course never going to admit. It’s just a line to use to justify this massacre.
Having problems with reading comprehension, are you?
Your inability to read and comprehend fairly standard English is hardly a lie on my part.
Israel not being allowed to retaliate against its genocidal foes means that it would surrender and submit to their genocidal ambitions. The fact that the anti-Israel folks have massive ammounts of intellectual dishonesty means they do not admit that their absurd rhetoric of non-self defense, if taken to its logical conclusion, would result in the destruction of Israel. That doesn’t mean that they are calling for Israel’s genocide, merely that it would be the only possible result of their bullshit pollyanna willfully ignorant intellectual dishonesty.
That doesn’t, however, mean that “any criticism of israel means they’re supporting genocide.”
That’s so stupid that it should be beneath even you.
Unless, of course, you’re lying to yourself sunshine. :rolleyes:
Thought you were leaving?
And yes, I like your repeated instance of willful ignorance, but why don’t you try debating honorably? (I notice, for instance, that you still have provided no cite as to Israel taking on the whole Lebanese army rather than the parts that are helping Hezbollah.)
And while we’re on the subject of honorable debate rather than vomiting out bullshit, you might want to finally admit that if Lebanon does not stop helping and start hindering Hezbollah, then they are complicit. So Israel’s ultimatum is not a ‘lie’, simply because you can’t wrap your mind around the fact that they, rightfully, hold Lebanon complicit unless they start actually doing something to stop Hezbollah.
You know, I am really sick of ignorant fucks like you. Honestly, I am. Try reading a goddamn newspaper before you start spewing all over the place, you’ll look less foolish. We’ve had Lebanon’s Defense Minister, President, and government as a whole confirm that they are arming, protecting, and using Hezbollah as a proxy force against Israel.
Faced with Lebanon’s own admission, and your bullshit ignorant denial, who should I trust? :dubious:
No, there’s no willful refusual, unless it’s your willful ignorance of the fact that if a state arms and supports a proxy force, then they’re responsible for their actions even if the proxy force acts on its own.
And yet again we have more intellectually dishonest rhetoric from a wilfully ignorant anti-Israel ranter. Who’d a thunk it? Are you honestly going to contend that there would be any possible military solution to ‘seperating Hezbollah’ from the Lebanese people that you’d have gotten behind? You’d have applauded Israel’s restraint with all the other anti-Israel folks if Israel invaded south Lebanon and fought a house-to-house campaign, right?
Or are you full of shit?
I know you’re going to babble some more about how very smart you are and how others brains aren’t working, but while patting yourself on the back you might not want to say things that are so increadibly stupid. The ‘militia’ plus their state sponsor are “the enemy”. But continue to willfully ignore this all you want.
Admit it, behind your empty insults and obnoxious whining, you’re just a troll, aren’t you?
You know, but pretend not to, that Lebanon has been supplying Hezbollah with weapons and that a large part of disarming them would simply entail not giving them any more fucking weapons. You know, but pretend not to, that a local army would have a much better chance than a foreign invader. You know, but pretend not to, that it is a perfectly reasonable request that a sovereign nation control its own borders and stop arming terrorists as a proxy force. You know, but pretend not to, that even if Lebanon’s army couldn’t totally deal with Hezbollah, that attempting to deal with them is responsible, but arming them with rockets is an act of war against Israel.
You know all of this, but pretend not to, so you can toss your bait in the water and babble about how others aren’t as smart as you. Troll.
Well, troll, you’d be the authority on knowing things but pretending otherwise to make the rhetorical equivelant of a fart in a crowded room. Or continue to pretend that rockets grow on trees and even without Lebanon helping shipments of ordinance get to Hezbollah, they’d just wander out and pick the rockets off the trees.