Josh was one of the smartest kids I ever knew, funny as hell too. Too bad he’s been busing tables for two years now, and content with that too. It’s a shame someone a little more motivated wasn’t born with his smarts.
Here’s a couple things to know about Josh. He scored a higher score than most of us (group of friends) on the SAT’s, and the day of the test he had to let his gf borrow his calculator because she forgot her’s.
He went to one semester of college, “because that’s what you’re supposed to do”. And he picked it because my brother wanted him as a roomate. Never really applied anywhere else. I remember an exchange my brother and he were having one day… my brother was bragging about how he got into more schools.
“Well, at least I GOT INTO Amherst!”
Josh quickly replied, “At least I can SPELL Amherst!”
To which be began mumbling an answer that included adding the letter “u”. My brother was never the classical type of smart even though I still look up to him for other things. He could easily sell someone a cell phone they didn’t need but would not know how to get the correct change without a calculator, or at least written out long-hand.
Josh didn’t want to play sports, he didn’t want to go to school, he didn’t want to be challenged at all. He wanted to just watch Sponge Bob Squarepants all day.
Sometimes a slacker is just a slacker, God love em’.
Tough school. He may just decide that the extra work isn’t worth it, but at least he’ll do the minimum at the higher level, not the low one. I don’t honestly think he’ll drop out of the tough one but not the easy one, and he may thrive. Besides, at the tough school the slackers may spend only forty minutes a night on homework- the social standards may be different, and the social penalties for not knowing an answer may be much stricter.
Don’t force him to play sports. Fact is, some kids just aren’t going to be into sports, and you may just make his life harder. But do demand that he pick some extracurricular activity.
I went to an average high school that happened to have a lot of AP classes. In the end, there were only two of 'um that I didn’t take. This was simply because “the hardest” was a joke, but not as much of a joke as the honors courses. I’m smart, sure, but I’m not IQ 200 smart, and I still got 3 or better on 14 AP classes. Hell, I taught myself Calculus BC, because I was so bored in Calc AB that I read the book in class while she was teaching, and got a 5 on the test.
My point being, I was also the President of every damn thing - SGA, GSA, vp of PTA, etc etc - and I still was bored half the time. I never had homework, maybe an hour a week. Truly smart kids know how to slack off the best.
I assume the hard school is Stuyvesant, by the fact that their open house was Feb 13, and your location. if so, your son misheard – at the moment, Stuy is ranked #15 among all US high schools for student achievement.
Obviously, I’m biased (class of '93) but there is no doubt in my mind Stuyvesant was the best thing to ever happen to be academically, and actually one of the better things to happen to me professionally (interviewers ask me about it all the time and reunions can’t be beat as networking opportunities). I went to a “gifted program” middle school where I learned nothing but smug scorn for my teachers and peer group. If there’s one thing Stuy did for me long term, it was wipe the superior smirk right off my face and make me realize I had better buckle down because they don’t hand out pats on the head for “trying.”
I was superstar in middle school. At Stuy, I was just “a’ight, dog” as they say, and I worked damn hard for my middle-of-the-pack status. I would recommend it to anyone.
Does he have any particular areas of academic interest? I started taking night classes at the local community college when I was 14, and in addition to garnering loads of nerd cred. it gave me enough interesting work to generally stay out of trouble during school hours.
I’m a Josh. I scored 760V/740M on my SATs, but didn’t graduate from high school; I think I was already burnt out by the time I got to junior high. I refused to write papers, causing me to consistently fail English and Social Studies. Some semesters, I didn’t turn in a single Math homework assignment. (The test scores were weighted heavily enough that I still did OK there.) In class, I often read Piers Anthony books, or drew geometric patterns on graph paper, or slept.
Some of my fondest memories of high school are from the summer school and night school classes that I had to take to make up failed courses. I enjoy meeting new people, and the “bad kids” there were a whole new culture to experience.
At the end of my fourth year, the school told me that although I wouldn’t be graduating, I shouldn’t bother to come back for a fifth year either. I got a GED in case I decided to try to get into college, but never applied anywhere. After so many years of conflict with my parents over school, I wouldn’t ask them to lend me the application fee. (I didn’t get an allowance, and the only job I’d ever had was a paper route, which wasn’t profitable, because I was lax with collecting the subscription fees.)
Unfortunately, nearly twenty years later, I’m still stubborn and lazy, at work and at home. I spend more time than I should surfing the Internet, or playing games. It’s been fifteen years since I successfully applied for a job. Back then, I was moving from Shipping to a desk job, and I still have the same boss. (I did attempt to jump to IS once, but that was at least five years ago.) She gives me different duties pretty regularly, and I do some and dodge others.
Sorry, I guess I’m monologuing. I must be depressed.
I say go with the best/toughest school you could get him into.
I was very similar in high school. I got along with people and all, it’s just that while many of my classmates were sweating their community college aps or considering careers in the police, fire or military, I was pretty certain that I would get into good college. I think I would have been much better off surrounded by peers who were a bit more academically ambitious.
On the other hand, I’m still actually pretty lazy when it comes to stuff I don’t want to do. I think part of it is from being intelligent. It’s kind of like a “why should I work so hard for this idiot?” attitude (the idiot being a teacher, boss, or whoever).
Plan B, you asked for thoughts too; here are mine.
The “tough” school is almost certainly expensive. Not just tuition; these kids tend to blow through a lot of $$ in equipment, travel, who knows what. They also have a higher-end social attitude in general, and the social thing needs to be constantly reinforced, from his friends and you. You ready for that? Being the only poor kid in a high-end gifted program…let’s say it could have gone better.
The “normal” school, on the other hand, might offer an academic program that works as well as anything will (lead a horse to water…) and give your kid the chance to misbehave and otherwise get comfortable in his own skin. He’s only 14. He’ll get into college when the time comes.
Does your comment apply no matter if the school is public or private? Plan B could easily be talking about a public magnet school like Stuyvesant in NYC.
I had a very similar dilemma heading into high school, and I was also in New York City, like the OP. Got into Bronx Science (prestigious public school), got into Xavier (prestigious Jesuit school), but totally screwed up 8th grade and only passed because the teachers liked me (got four flat 70s for the year – failing was 69). At the Bronx Science open house, it was suggested that they don’t get on you about doing the work. You could do it and pass and that’d be great, or you could not do it and fail and that’s ok too, your call (you just have to find a new school in the fall).
Hearing this, my mother decided that, lacking any discernible internal structure, I’d do better at the Jesuit school that provides external structure, even though Bronx Science was free, co-ed, and had at least a somewhat better reputation. It was my decision, I guess, but I went along with mom.
Now, I loved Xavier and I still feel a lot of loyalty to it, and they maybe did carry me through some of my lazier periods, but looking back I think Bronx Science would have been the better choice. I didn’t acquire any self-discipline or internal structure at Xavier – though I probably wouldn’t have at Bronx Science either – so, what the hell, throw me in the deep end and see if I swim.
Definitely send your son to the tougher school, Plan B. Put your foot down. If he flunks out, the average school will probably still be there for him – there are tons of mid-level high schools that serve as clearing houses for washouts from the elite schools.
Plan B, if you don’t mind my asking, was the tough school Stuyvesant?
Oh, and has your son decided which high school he’s going to yet?
I didn’t attend Stuyvesant, but I went to a similar high school on the Upper East Side. (Hunter, for those of you who know.) These days I’ve been thinking how lucky I was to have gone to this school. Having a peer group of the smartest kids in New York City pushed me to do more than I think I would have at a less academically-oriented school. I’m still friends with some of my classmates more than 10 years later.
Both of my sisters and several of my friends went to Stuy. I have to add my voice to the chorus crying “Send your son to the tough school!” Especially if that tough school is Stuyvesant. Its facilities are (or were–I don’t know how it compares now) the envy of every other public high school in NYC; its teachers are excellent; and as for the students–even within NYC there are only a few other high schools where your son would have a peer group of the caliber he would get at Stuy.
For those people who doubt that students at the tough school would have 2 hours of homework a night: it’s no joke. I experienced it. My sisters and friends experienced it.
There are many elite private schools in New York City, but the “tough school” that Plan B is considering is almost certainly one of NYC’s specialized public high schools, such as the aforementioned Stuyvesant, and Bronx Science. Completely free to attend.
Lots of my classmates, my sisters’ classmates, and my friends’ classmates were middle class and/or the children of immigrants. In my day it seemed like every Asian immigrant parent in NYC wanted their child(ren) to get into Stuy. It is seriously the best education deal you can get.
Plan B, I would recommend that you read A Class Apart by Alec Klein. It follows the lives of several Stuy students (from the class of 2006? I forget) for one school year. I found much of my own high school experience reflected in its pages. You can get an idea of what your son can expect at Stuy from reading it.
Stuyvesant and its ilk truly are a class apart. Very few high schools in the US offer an experience like what you can get at Stuy.
iwakura and Serronaulta, you’re right, I misread. Thinking that it must be a private school was wrong.
To amend: Plan B, he’s 14, and may NEED to go wild for a bit. I don’t know him, or if his behavior is genuinely wrong or not. Just seeing that “14” makes me think “growing pains.” This is getting onto some very thin ice, but I remember myself at that age being absolutely sick of being “smart” and “good”. So, I’m not gonna offer advice, just a possibility.
The tough school would have done wonders for my motivation, so long as it wasn’t “dumb tough.” I loved my “tough and fair” teachers, and I was one of the “pillow students” in my school (we got put in the bad groups to make up the numbers needed for a group, as we’d have the same grades whether our class was good or bad - in my case, I just got no motivation from home).
If I recall correctly, in NYC the admission tests are for people who want to go to Stuyvesant, Brooklyn Tech. and Bronx School of Science.
Which one is the average school? Wouldn’t the 90th percentile get him into all three schools?
Pick the better school. If he fails he can always go to the easier one. Just remember that he isn’t going to fail because he isn’t smart enough. It is going to be because he lacks interest.
There’s a general test for public schools, then there’s a tougher test specifically for those three, the “science schools.” And no, 90th percentile on that test would not get him into all three, I’m fairly certain.
I was surprised to see this thread was resurrected. Very busy this evening but I’ll respond to as many questions and ideas as I can in the next few days. For the record the tougher school is Brooklyn Tech, the easier school is Murrow. Both are public schools, no tuition. Stuyvesant is now limited to 99 percentile kids, and only some of them get in. My son does well on standardized tests, but not that well.
It feels a little weird that I actually know people from both the high school’s in question (can I ask what J.H.S he went to?) I went to Sheepshead H.S. and spent most of the time trying not to get stabbed. Which made it pretty difficult to concentrate on things like biology. I hear Murrow is a little better, but not that far off. Brooklyn Tech definitely has a lot safer environment. If your son wants to learn something, he actually has the option of doing so. In Murrow it would be much more difficult because of the atmosphere there. It is a pretty standard example of factory education. Just provide the basic dull channels of education and push a bunch students through. In the end, no one learns anything interesting or useful, but some show enough skills on tests to get by. You’ll have maybe one or two useful teachers but the overall experience will suck for anyone that wants to learn anything.
Murrow is also a horrible school for slackers. From what I know it seems like it actually encourages it. When I went to H.S. (five years ago) they allowed more free periods than the other high schools, so it was easy for kids to blend in among the people that had no class.
Give him a chance, send him to Brooklyn Tech.
ETA: I didn’t realize how old this thread was and the decision was probably made by now. I hope he went to Brooklyn Tech.
