Veterans of the Teenage Wars--Help!

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
1

I have two bright, beautiful children who started middle school this September. My daughter is like the rest of us humans. She studies hard to get good grades and is doing very well in her AP classes. Except for her love of 'Nsync, the Backstreet Boys, Britney Spears and her propensity for three hour long telephone conversations, she has not caused me any great heartache- yet. My son, however, is driving me crazy.

He is in a school for gifted children. He started reading at 3 years old. My husband and I didn’t do anything besides the usual with him, he just picked it up; and herein lies the one of the problems. He learns things easily. In class he finishes he lessons before anyone else and then disrupts the class (I got a phone call at work one day because he was throwing paperclips). If he can’t pick it up easily (he’s having a problem with trigonomety) then he doesn’t want to know about it ( to quote him "Trig is stupid). Recently he and two of his friends were caught with a forged note letting them into the media room. They were trying to hack through the school’s internet firewall.

That escape cost him his T.V. and PlayStation privileges. Yesterday he came home with a note from his Social Studies teacher. Apparently he disagreed with her on some fact in NYC history. He called her stupid (a favorite word of his) in front of the whole class.

He is a lazy, smart-assed, know-it-all and I’d really love to strangle him, or give him a good old fashioned beating. My husband has nixed both those ideas. I suggested taking away his books, also nixed by my husband.

I need advice on how to manage him and my own anger. Is this normal? Help!

Teacher, my red crayon tastes funny – Ralph Wiggum

2

Boredom is never a good punishment, and taking away books, Playstation, etcetera without replacing them with something qualifies as trying to starve him with boredom. More likely, it’ll only make him squirrlier and cause him to get in worse trouble.

It sounds like he “needs to be challenged” and be held accountable for his daily actions. Grades posted every six weeks were never enough incentive for me to get my work done that night.

There’s no easy way out of this, BigGirl. You’re going to have to ride him every single day until his behavior straightens out. Find out from his teachers what his assignments are and then stand over his shoulder until he accomplishes them. He gets a little more freedom when he learns to treat his fellow students and teachers with more respect. Otherwise he has you (and hopefully his dad) breathing down his neck, making him miserable.

3

Was he wrong, or right, with respect to the disputed NYC history fact?

  • Rick
4

Well…
He said black people were in New York before the British, the Irish and everyone but the Native Americans. The Dutch had slaves when they sailed into the harbor and that it would make sense that the Dutch sent the slaves out on the landing boat.
He’s a smart-ass.

Teacher, my red crayon tastes funny – Ralph Wiggum

5

I, too, was a smart-ass in high school just two years ago. Now I’m a smart-ass in university, though it sounds like I’m more down with math than your son, which may make the situation a little different.

I would guess that your son is arrogant and cocksure, and he probably doesn’t get along with the jocks, etc. in the school. The fact is that schoolwork in grade 10 (or whatever) is not only dead easy (even in a private school) but also dead boring.

Perhaps you could talk to the teachers at your son’s school, present the problem, and come up with a solution. An example:

Your son was trying to hack through a firewall. He’s obviously into web computing. Talk to a computer science teacher and get your son working on a bomb-ass webpage for the school or a club or something. Something like this will appeal to your son’s interests. In addition, your son will be able to indulge his arrogance by putting in features that will actually challenge him. There are several scripting languages that can be used to enhance webpages. Speaking of which, that’s what I’m getting paid to do, so I’d better get back to it! (btw: Your son could even start a webpage business with friends. It’s easier than you’d believe).

Hope you like the idea.

6

Do yourself a favor and find some middle ground with your son. Nobody said it was going to be easy. Try solving one problem at a time and know that one day, natural maturation will pull him out of most of those stupid things he is doing… in the meantime think of it like this:

He has a good home…a mother and a dad. You have set his morals by example in concrete. That is more than a whole lot of kids can say these days. He knows right from wrong and he knows what you guys approve of and what you don’t approve of. All that bad behavior in between is his way of saying " Hey I am somebody…I’m a separate human being…an individual." It’s superfluous behavior that will fall by the wayside eventually. Remember when you were in school? Did you do anything stupid? I sure did.

If his teachers can’t do anything with him at some point then get the principal’s permission if needed, and send him to another school. That makes a difference in some cases. Gives them pause to think about their actions. Otherwise just approach it one day at a time and one problem at a time. Give his teachers all the support they need. Let them know that you are behind them and backing them up.

I have two sons, the oldest 18 just got a DUI and the other is 10 and diagnosed ADHD but they are gonna be fine (someday.)

Take my advice…pull down your pants and slide on the ice.
:slight_smile:

Yours truly,
aha

7

Just to clarify. Middle school is 7th grade and he’s twelve. I’ve got a few more years of this stuff yet.

8

Biggril,

Whatever you do to punish your son, make sure that it is involves giving him more work to do. If he is old enough, make him work with some sort of volunteer organizations. Perhaps have him do some sort of peer tutoring.

As for calling people or things “stupid”, have him write a paper about it. For example, a paper detailing what qualifies someone to be a teacher in your district. (this idea courtesy of the USAF BMT).

Letting my inner child run loose and break things.

9

Biggirl, nice to meet you. Take away the Y chromosome, slip an X in there and I was your son 8 years ago.

Because I was smart, sarcastic, and arrogant, I was alientated from the other kids. Because all I really wanted was to be accepted, this turned into a self-esteem problem that I am battling to this day. My parents saw me as cocky and lazy, but it was really over-compinsation so that people couldn’t see how vulnerable I was. And the laziness was my fear of failure. If I didn’t get something immediately, that meant I wasn’t EVER going to get it, and that meant everyone was going to find out that that I wasn’t as smart as they all kept telling me, (“I don’t know why you act this way, you’re so BRIGHT.”) and I would be both a social reject AND of average intelligence. On top of that, I was able to do the school work I was handed in half the time of the other kids, which left my quick little brain LOTS of time to plan dire punishments for my classmates for rejecting me.

My parents got me tested for learning disablities (I never did homework at home. Why should I? I get A’s on all the tests, anyway,), had me see a shrink, got me involved in the John Hopkin’s Gifted Children’s program after I scored some insane score on the MATs. But I was profoundly depressed, and it got worse in high school, where I quickly went from being the big fish in a little pond to just another frustrated kid.

Talk to him. Don’t accuse him or make him feel like he HAS to talk to you, just listen to what he has to say. My parents repeated over and over again that they loved me without restrictions, and that probably saved my life as I became more and more depressed. Tell him you don’t want him to keep anything at all from you, that he won’t get in trouble for telling you anything he FEELS. Ask him what specifically he doesn’t like about school, and what specifically he DOES like. Talk to his teachers and find out if he can do more independant study projects (that suggestion about getting him into web design was a great one.) Part of my problem was that I am not now, nor ever have been, able to effectively learn in a lecture situation. I am a visual learner, I like discovering things on my own. Take him to a shrink to get his intelligence tested, and ask the shrink to evaluate what learning methods would be best for your son. (there are 6 different learning styles, you know.)

I peaked achidemically in the 7th grade, when my writing was published, I got into John Hopkin’s (but my parent’s couldn’t afford to send me,) and had my IQ tested by a psychologist. After that, I simply didn’t care anymore. I pissed away my high school years, didn’t have the grades to get a scholarship, and started working. Now I’m trying to work full time and balance 9 credits of school.

Don’t dismiss this as teenage problems. He’s 12, the hormones have not yet begun to fight. This is a behavioral problem. He needs your help desperately, and every act of rebellion is him pleading for it. I know he’s driving you crazy, but he needs you. And if you need someone to help you help him, please get it. My parents both started as teachers, my mom has has Master’s in elementary education, my father is a mental health worker. They never ignored me, they just had no idea how to help me, and I was too scared and angry to tell them.

And let us know what happens. I try not to live with regrets, and I do believe my parents did everything they thought of to help me, but I’d hate to see another person in the pain I know I lived with for many, many years. Good luck, e-mail me if you want to vent.

DON PEDRO: Your silence most offends me, and to be merry best becomes you; for, out of question, you were born in a merry hour.

BEATRICE: No, sure, my lord, my mother cried; but then there was a star danced, and under that was I born. -Much Ado About Nothing, Act II, Sc: i

10

SwimmingRiddles, I would love to e-mail you, however I don’t know your address. If there is a profile feature on this board I have yet to find it.
Plz don’t ridicule me (not you personally Swim, but some people on this board get very upset when you don’t know how to do something) I’ve checked the faq and About This Board.
Thank you all, you have all been very helpful.

11

I just e-mailed you at your Yahoo account.

In the same bar where a person’s name is listed on a post there are three icons. One looks like a person with an index card coming out of his face (it has a question mark on it), one looks like an evelope, one looks like a page with an arrow. The Person one is the profile. You can click there to see the person’s e-mail, if they have it listed. Clicking on the envelope gives you a link to send an e-mail to the person, and the letter with the arrow is when you want to quote a whole post in a reply. (or when are too lazy to write the UBB code,)

Hope that helps!

DON PEDRO: Your silence most offends me, and to be merry best becomes you; for, out of question, you were born in a merry hour.

BEATRICE: No, sure, my lord, my mother cried; but then there was a star danced, and under that was I born. -Much Ado About Nothing, Act II, Sc: i

12

I suspect many of the contributors on this board have similar tales to tell.

For my part, I too called a teacher stupid. She was explaining to the class how the Lincoln-Douglass debates were Lincoln and Douglas going aroinf Illinois debating for the upcoming Senate election.

I pointed out (and this was years before Cecil’s book) that the Seventeenth Amendment didn’t get added to the Constitution until 1913. She had no clue what I was talking about. I explained that the Seventeenth Amendment created direct election of Senators by the people, as opposed to the previous method of selection by the state’s legislature. She said I was wrong. I called her an idiot.

Now, to this day, I contend she should have known what she was talking about… but I now understand that no matter what, calling someone an idiot is not the best way to do things.

I heartily endorse everything SwimmingRiddles said, above. May parents were very frustrated with me. In middle school, I was actually used as a case study for a book called “They Can But They Don’t” about underachieving kids.

By high school, things straightened out. There was an unfortunate incident of backsliding my freshman year in college, but I digress.

For your child, the independent study is a great idea, if the school is willing to do it. To the extent that you can help him avoid “make-work” assignments in favor of real work, interesting work - do it. I didn’t do well in middle school math, for instance, as a large part of the grade was homework. In high school, I was lucky enough to get a teacher whose policy was: if you get an A or B on the most recent test, you don’t need to turn in homework. This was made for me! I flourished, and even became a math major my freshman college year.

Anyway, I guess what I’m suggesting is: there’s hope, all is not lost… but you can help the situation, too.

  • Rick
13

I had a situation similar to the one Bricker was in. My CompSci teacher had two summers of training and was teaching grade 12 AP programming. I’d been programming since I was seven. I called him on something and instead of asking me to find proof and show him later he just called me wrong. So when I did prove it I did in in front of the class, and was a jerk about it, putting him down.

Anyways, I got kicked out of class for the rest of the week. (Strange how the reward you like that… :slight_smile:

But, I think I’d still do that today. A teacher who isn’t willing to accept that they might not know everything isn’t a good teacher and imho needs to be cut down.

Bricker’s teacher and mine both missed a perfect opportunity to learn something and turn it into a lesson for the class, perhaps even by getting us smart aleks to write an essay proving out point. But instead they just assume that kids can’t know as much as they do…

14

Ridiculously huge post ahead.

I was 6. I was in ballet.

My mom was called to pick me up. The teacher was in tears. I’d told the teacher that she was wrong. In front of the whole class.

She taught us that “soandso” was “soandso3” last week, and now she was telling us something else. Hands on my hips, full of self-righteous childish indignation, I took the teacher on in what degenerated into a shouting match.

I’m pretty sure that, as a 6 year old, in getting an adult to act worse than me, I won that one.

SwimmingRiddles, are you sure we weren’t siblings, or separated at birth somehow? I went through the whole bit as well, the shrinks, the evaluations after evaluation (I aced out at the top on all of the damn things, so much for being “slow” or “stupid”), rapid decrease in grades, and the works.

I could bring home As across the board, but my conduct grades were awful.

Well, come ON. I’d finish tests in a third of the time it took the rest of the class, and be left sitting (and fidgeting, BORED out of my skull) and forbidden to do anything while the others finished. I got in LOTS of trouble that way.

My Biology teacher (rest her soul) had numerous hair-pulling fits over me. I would sit in her class and through labs with a book in hand – not, of course, my textbook. I’d read through her lectures. She’d end up getting frustrated, and throw out a pop quiz.

And I’d nail every one of them. I was the talk of the teacher’s lounge in frustration. “That girl reads through every one of my classes and I’d swear she doesn’t pay attention. You ask her a question, though …”

The last college medical class I took, I had the same problem. The teacher, let’s face it, just wasn’t that great. Her final was a fiasco, and I argued half of the answers because they just weren’t “right.” I knew the material in and out, but I got a low low B on her final because she had a poor practical application of the knowledge. She refused to give me credit for answers that were RIGHT but weren’t HER answers, and treated me like I was a substandard student that didn’t pay attention. Until …

The state certification test told a different tale. (My husband, who was in the same class, just now gave me the same dirty look he gave me when we got our scores. He still holds it against me) I outscored the entire class, and got one of the highest scores in record, a 98%.

My grades fell apart in high school as I finally gave up and found things to entertain myself. I found the other misfits that didn’t fit in for whatever reason, and got myself in all kinds of trouble that could have been avoided had anyone in authority paid attention to the real problem. It wasn’t my attitude, it wasn’t that I was stupid, or antisocial. I was smart, and totally bored, and pretty much ostracized by other kids for my size (I was consistently the smallest one in my grade for at least 6 years straight).

Like Swimming, if I didn’t catch it immediately, it just wasn’t going to be caught. That led to lots of parental harranguing, because I was “too bright” to be so stupid. I LOATHED Geometry, because no one could EVER make it make sense, or explain why any of it mattered to me.

When something DID make sense, it clicked immediately. Unfortunately, that meant sitting through a further hour or so of a teacher having to drill it OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN till everyone else caught on. By the end of class, I didn’t care anymore, I just wanted them to shut up and go away. Were we SUPPOSED to be slow and stupid? Was that what was wrong with me?

I’m self taught in most of the areas I know well, I sit down and read the tech manuals, etc. It took me a week to totally and completely surpass my husband in computer knowledge, despite the fact that I hadn’t touched a computer since high school.

For a while, I had delusions of becoming a teacher, to “Do It Right.” That lasted through my first semester of college teaching courses. I discovered almost immediately that the slow and less bright that had caused so much of my boredom in school were just beyond my capability to understand. “You don’t get it??? Why NOT???”

I had no patience for teaching people that I had to repeat lessons to over and over again. I didn’t know if it was a failure in my own teaching skills, or some failure on their part to comprehend. I took the safest road out and switched majors immediately. If it was my failure, I sure didn’t need to get another generation of kids as screwed up as I was. If it wasn’t my failure, there was no way I could put up with that in class without going insane.

Biggirl … give him SOMETHING TO DO. Take that computer leap. If he’s really liking computers, and the “hacking” aspect, look into some of the FBI and CIA programs. I know that for a while, they were watching over kids that had lots of potential and offering full scholarships to fledgling computer techs in exchange for years working for them on graduation.

You’ve got to find those one or two pursuits that will not only mesh with his “formal” education, but keep his mind totally active and busy. For his sake, AND your own sanity.

Work with his teachers. If he finishes early consistently, see if he can’t be given “extra credit assignments” to complete in the interim (and make sure the teacher is bright enough to offer those to all kids that finish early as well so there’s no favoritism charges … with the stipulation that the grades on assignments HAVE to stay high and that they can’t skip out and do sloppy work just to get the extra credit).

No reading in class after tests? Why the hell not? Reading is GOOD for you. Find out if there’s any way he can read after he finishes (so long as its not test-oriented material, of course). Look for recommended reading lists. Find out what he’s interested in, and find books both fiction and non so he can learn about it. He digs computers? Get him into cyberpunk punks – AND find non-fiction that explains the theories behind them. Aim for books recommended a grade or two above him for starters. Don’t make it easy, but if it’s too hard, you’ll get the same boredom. See how he zips through them and inhales the knowledge, then go from there on new choices.

If he’s really having a problem with one class, find another that fits the credit requirments and give it a try. I managed to get lucky and replace the hated Geometry class with a Business math course, involving statistics and spreadsheets and taxes and all the stuff with a “practical” application that I loved.

Good luck. I’ve got one of those kids (probably two) myself.

15

I was just like your son when I was that age.

When I was 13, we moved to the US, and since I had finished what would be highschool here, I had a year to goof off before they would allow me into the universities. So, I went to a local community collge for a few hours a day, and screwed with peoples minds the other hours. I regret not finding something more to do during that time, but I just didn’t care.

My first two years of college fascinated me, I did everything I could to get ahead. But, I failed a physics exam and I just stopped doing anything. In my mind I was a failure so I stopped doing EVERYTHING. I am VERY glad I didn’t flunk out, because that summer I went back to Ireland and met with friends I had left behind, and they were still doing things like geometry.

Anyway, I think your child needs structures intellectual entertainment. My mother took me to operas, plays, musicals, she had me read large philosophy textbooks, and found a way for me to LECTURE on things I liked. Every month, I would be able to stand up in front of 400 or so people, and give them my opinions on things like Psychology, Philosophy, Theology, Economics, Life itself. See if you can find something that he ADORES and that can keep him occupied for hours. Try to find with him something that he can put a lot of time into, and his behavioural problems might clear up.

aHEM “There is nothing more destructive then an unused mind”

One does not become enlightened by imagining figures of light, but by making the darkness conscious Carl Jung

16

I’m not disagreeing with anything said before. Sounds like you have a bright, frustrated kid on your hands.

Others said it better already, so I won’t belabor the lack of intellectual challenge your son is facing in school. I don’t know how open his school is toward independent study, etc. or if there are accelerated programs available. By whatever means, he needs some adaptation to his curiosity.

But there is another issue here that inevitably crops up with “exceptional” children. A kid may be intellectually precocious but he’s still a kid. Intellectual strength is just one aspect of growth–and ability. It’s a fine balancing act when the intellectual level is so far ahead of overall maturity.

I’m waffling here. Your son will have to learn to his handle his intelligence. He was not only rude, he was ineffective. (BTW, he has the excuse of being young!) Knowing more isn’t enough; being able to apply that knowledge in a world of other people is absolutely crucial.

Sorry if I’m sounding stuffy here, but it’s heartbreaking watching bright kids pushed off balance for life. They’re groomed for brains but starved for social skills. Your son will always be bright; hell, everybody is brighter at some things than others. But knowing how to get along with people is just as important. Bluntly, intelligence worn with grace and humility will serve him much better in life–IMO.

He’s a bright kid. He needs to know that his great intelligence doesn’t have to make him lonely. (Betcha he’s feeling a bit isolated right now.) Forcing him into sports, clubs, etc. wouldn’t work. At least it didn’t with me. Parental exhortations about “you’ll enjoy it if you try it” just got lamer when I inevitably hated it and felt more alone.

But that’s where rules of manners come in. They’re guidelines for behavior. They provide structure. “Bragging is tacky and second rate. Your honor is the reflected in the way you treat others & etc.”

IMO, too many intellectually bright people are left to flounder through the pain of trying to find their niche with other people. Schooling in basic courtesy would make their lives so much easier and utilize their gifts so much better.

Okay. I’ll go away now.

Veb

17

A strange facet of the teenage male behavior:
puffing up his chest and acting tough and independent long before he actually is or is mature enough to know the difference. We all have gone through it. It’s part of the program.

18

My own story is similar to the others posted here.

One thing that helped me was the Center for Talented Youth (CTY) summer program that is run by Johns Hopkins. (I think someone mentioned this in an earlier post.)

At the time I went (mid-1980s) you qualified by getting a high score on the SATs, which you took in 7th grade.

I started the summer after 7th grade, and continued until the summer after 10th grade.

It was held at Dickinson College. Everybody took an intensive class, but there was plenty of time for sports and other fun stuff.

The classes were great, but the best part was the social aspect. Basically, it was hundreds of other over-bright, over-bored kids. It was really nice to be aroung others who were like me, and the friends I made helped keep me sane during the school year.

(Any JelloBusters out there? Just hopin’)

Anyway, CTY or a similar program might be helpful for your son. Plus, you get to ship him away for weeks at a time.

19

A lot of good advice. I second (or whatever) the recommendations to find challenges for him beyond the regular school work. The challenges will both keep him interested and busy and motivated, but also teach him lessons in sticking with learning something that doesn’t come in a snap. (That’s why it needs to be something that really interests him - so he’s motivated to try when it isn’t easy.)

For me, picking things up quickly in high school actually hindered me a little in college. I was good at learning from the lectures (and taking notes - writing them myself, not just reading a preprinted page) and homework, so I never learned how to study - reviewing material, rereading work, etc. Also, I found I need the structure of regular assignments. I had a couple classes that deviated from that format, and didn’t do as well. I failed to study on my own without the homework.

Regarding the part about being there to listen, that’s good if you can reinforce that in him, but in order for it to work you have to make sure you listen without attacking. If he actually does come to you to discuss his feelings and you get judgmental, he won’t likely come back.

If you can find an activity or club that interests him, that would be good too, because it will help with the socializing.

For punishment, instead of just taking away his favorite toys, do as suggested and assign projects. A good stern lecture was always a punishment that worked on me. Get him to understand how calling the teacher stupid was not the way to make his point.

As for if it’s normal… normal is not quite the right word. Being extra bright is not “normal” (though apparently it’s common on this board). However the trends in his behavior are.

Good luck.

*Warning: poster has no kids of his own. Reader discretion advised.

20

I’ll add my voice to the list of people who could have been your son. I scored 1200+ on the SATS despite drinking myself to a stupor the night before, yet got out of high school with a 1.2 GPA. I flat out didn’t care. Homework? I’d do it if it interested me. Tests? Never studied… usually passed, if not I didn’t care since I knew I was being judged on the homework anyways.
What our school had that helped me a lot was the option to earn high school credit at the local community college. I didn’t have to put up with the BS at the HS, I could go in, take my class, and get out. I was still smarter than most, but at least my ego was placated by knowing that I was in college while the rest of my class was still wasting at the high school.
As far as punishments go… how exactly are you going to make him do reports? Or listen to you when you lecture? Lectures just pissed me off because I knew everything they were saying was true, but I’d be damned if I was going to follow along with it. Honestly, there was nothing my parents could do to punish me. I recommend encouraging things that will help him vent frustration and engage his mind. For me it was band… I played a couple instruments in high school, and it gave me a social outlet, a self esteem builder, and a hobby all at once. I realized that despite me wanting to be a rebel and outcast, the need to feel a part of something was still strong – band gave me that. If he shows any interest in sports, that’s probably better… if he’s an outsider, he may look down on athletes, but most of the people I know secretly wanted to be a part of that group.
Being told you’re a failure over and over hurts anyone… school is probably punishment enough for him. But if you encourage him to grow in other areas, he’ll probably turn out fine.

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