Where would Africa be today if white imperialism had not happened?

[New_Deal_Democrat]

@Malthus

The primary problems of Africa as a continent, in competition with other civilization-areas, were the geographic and disease-related barriers which effectively confined and isolated civilization-centers from each other & instead tied them more closely with larger and more powerful civilization-centres elsewhere.

For example, the Sahara isolated north Africa from sub-Saharan Africa, tying north Africa more closely to the (larger) Mediteranian world; Egypt found communications with the middle east and the mediterannian world easier than with sub-saharan Africa (and was thus much more involved, over the last three millenia, as an adjunct to various empires - Greek, Roman, Byzantine, Arab - rather than Africa); the diseases of central Africa kept east and west african nations seperate; the tsetse fly barrier across central africa greatly inhibited north-south communications (not to mention bands of quite different climate), etc.

In contrast (given that humans are a competitive species, all progress is relative), the great empires of eurasia had a much easier time spreading, consolidating their power, and eventually advancing sufficiently in both power and technology to dominate bits of Africa easiest for them to reach.

European colonialism was but the last and largest example of this, corresponding to advances in technology and science which, at long last, reduced those barriers in relative significance (though slavery was practiced by europeans for centuries, actual domination of large bits of Africa - aside from south africa, where the climate suited europeans - had to wait until the disease barriers could be addressed: to quote the old shanty, “the Bight of Benin, one comes out where a hundred go in” being the reason).

In sum - colonialsim/imperialism is mostly the result of geography. Had it not existed, the geography would have remained the same - thus it would be highly unlikely that Africa would have been the site of a powerful competing centre of civilization.

Your argument is found in Guns, Germs, and Steel, by Jared Diamond. Although his book explains why agriculture and civilization began where they began, he ignores the fact that once these begin they have different population pressures than a hunter gatherer existence.

Agriculture requires the ability to plan for the future, defer gratification, and endure long periods of tedium. Civilization selects for superior intelligence because men of superior intelligence become successful merchants, government officials, artisans, artists, and so on, and live better lives than manual laborers. Consequently, they are likely to have more children who survive and reproduce.

The longer a racial group has practiced agriculture and city life the lower its crime rate is likely to be, and the higher its average intelligence. This can readily be seen in the charts in the following websites.

List of countries by intentional homicide rate

IQ and the Wealth of Nations

An excellent supplement and partial rebuttal of Guns, Germs and Steel can be found in The 10,000 year Explosion: How Civilization Accelerated Human Evolution, by Gregory Cochran and Henry Harpending.

Home - The 10k Year Explosion

The 10,000 Year Explosion explains the evolution of racial differences that are documented in The Bell Curve, by Richard Herrnstein and Charles Murray.

[BrainGlutton]

@MrDibble

Who said anything about “Sub-saharan”?Ever hear of a quaint little country called Sudan?

Yes, we should bear in mind that at least some of our international troubles now are rooted in the bitter memories of Islamic North Africans of the days when they were colonized by Europeans. All of them, from Morocco to Egypt.

[BrainGlutton]

@New_Deal_Democrat

. . . of racial differences that are documented in The Bell Curve, by Richard Herrnstein and Charles Murray.

Don’t start. Really, don’t start.

[Malthus]

@New_Deal_Democrat

The longer a racial group has practiced agriculture and city life the lower its crime rate is likely to be, and the higher its average intelligence. This can readily be seen in the charts in the following websites.

If this were true, one the most intelligent and least crime-ridden peoples in the world would be Egyptians - they have been practicing agriculture and have had cities and writing for far longer than Europeans (they were busy building pyramids when Europeans had the same level of civilization as New Guneans). Another would be the Kushites (Nubians ) - who build such empires as Kerma and Meroe.

And of course Egyptians are Africans, and Nubians are Black Africans. Both were practicing agriculture and city life far longer than Europeans.

[Marley23]

@New_Deal_Democrat

The 10,000 Year Explosion explains the evolution of racial differences that are documented in The Bell Curve, by Richard Herrnstein and Charles Murray.

@BrainGlutton

Don’t start. Really, don’t start.

I agree completely. New Deal Democrat, your posts about race are marking you as a one-trick pony on this site. The evolution of racial differences is not relevant to this thread and constitutes a hijack. That topic is off-limits in this thread.

[Little_Nemo]

nm

[Mijin]

Debates like this tend to be rather polarized, but in reality imperialism was neither all bad or all good, and imagining a world without it is quite difficult.

The infrastructure, technology and general organisation have undoubtably been useful.

I think a negative that hasn’t been mentioned yet is the drawing of (arbitrary) state boundaries. Countries were created right across tribal lines, which was a powderkeg for the future.
Also whole nations were made that were landlocked and had little resources of their own (there are few countries like this outside of africa).

[Steve_MB]

nm

[Chief_Pedant]

@even_sven

Leadership is a continual problem.

How did leadership get so bad?

Well, to begin with, at the point of independence very few countries had a well-established bureaucratic class that could take up the mantle of leadership. Poor Niger had less than 10 college-educated Nigerien people in the entire country. Even better-off countries only had at best a couple hundred people with any tertiary education. Since any infrastructure was set up for white benefit, it’d be at least a generation before, even in the best of circumstances, there was enough leadership to run a country. Colonial rule had been so tight that many African countries were in a position where no African had ever taken even a mild leadership role. Any functioning local leadership systems were broken or re-moulded to serve colonial purposes.

Note that this is extremely different than the case in India, where the British were less interested in extracting raw materials, and more interested in developing markets for British goods. Markets need a middle class, and Britain fostered one.

Then after independence, a second and more decisive blow to good leadership happened. A wave of young African leaders emerged, full of ideas for their newly free continent. Exciting ideas like pan-Africanism were in the air while dreamer came streaming back from Paris universities and out of the intellectual circles in local capitals ready to lead their countries.

And we shot them. We shot them in Belgien airports. We blew up their planes. We chopped them up and drove around looking for places to dispose of the pieces. When we could, we funded someone else who we figured would kill them. But when worse came to worse, western intelligence forces had no problem doing the killing themselves.

An entire generation of leadership was killed, as a direct or purposefully secondary result of Western intelligence forces, in the era immediately before and after independence.

We nipped African leadership in the bud.

In there place a group of insecure, easily-manipulated leaders that were weak enough to comply with Cold-War plan for Africa were ushered into place. With very little popular support, they were subject to coup after coup, which western powers usually insulated them from. Even in the 1990s, French forces were directly protecting the Idriss Deby in Chad, a leader too weak to even pretend to control more than a few kilometers out of the capital. Because these Cold-War puppets were so weak, they had to rely on alliances with ethnic leaders to even pretend to control their borders. In a lot of countries, ethnic politics is a very new thing, and has come about as a modern way for leaders with no popular support to maintain control of their territory and break up the opportunity for united opposition.

These are the forces that are still at play in modern Africa. The ramifications of Cold-War meddling never went away. Nearly every leader, and certainly most of the worst, are a direct result of this. There is a lot of hope in Africa right now that the rest of Africa can follow the wave of Middle Easter uprisings- which is exactly the same thing (weak unpopular leaders supported by foreign forces as a legacy of Cold War policy).

Lord have mercy.

This is one of those silly, over-simplified posts that appeal to the crowd who assumes the lack of progress over an entire continent is somehow the fault of naughty white Westerners. The conceit is that the West decided to behave differently in, say, the Indian sub-continent than the did in African countries, and that therefore the progress of India post-colonialization is differentially successful because of some sort of nefarious master plan to treat sub-saharan Africa badly. Noble and equally capable (if they were given equal opportunity) savages and all that. This is nonsense.

The weak have always been dominated by the strong; the less capable invaded and abused by the more capable; the intelligent have always used their skillset to out-compete those with less intelligence. That’s human nature, and it happens within groups, between groups; within continents and across political boundaries. Sub-saharan Africans have proved remarkably consistent at getting the short end of the stick in every situation. This includes how they were doing pre-colonization, during colonization, and after colonization. It also includes how they rank when they find themselves in a minority or majority population, within Africa as a continent, or as immigrants to other countries.

No doubt Africans have been plundered and abused by the West; prior to the arrival of the West they were plundering and abusing one another just as all human population groups have been doing through all of time. Their failure to rise to equity can be laid at their feet as easily as others, however. Over the long run when two populations come into contact, the inherently more capable population somehow eventually rises to the top. That this has not happened in Africa is a reflection of an innate lesser average capability, not an ongoing external conspiracy.

[Peremensoe]

@Chief_Pedant

Sub-saharan Africans have proved remarkably consistent at getting the short end of the stick in every situation. This includes how they were doing pre-colonization, during colonization, and after colonization.

How did sub-Saharan Africans consistently get the short end of the stick in every situation before colonization?

[orcenio]

I want to spend a moment to showcase some of the truly marvelous world heritage sites that I previously linked to. They deserve more casing then what I had given them.

The Walled city of Harar (pictures)[

The fortified historic town of Harar is located in the eastern part of the country on a plateau with deep gorges surrounded by deserts and savannah. The walls surrounding this sacred Muslim city were built between the 13th and 16th centuries. Harar Jugol, said to be the fourth holiest city of Islam, numbers 82 mosques, three of which date from the 10th century, and 102 shrines, but the townhouses with their exceptional interior design constitute the most spectacular part of Harar’s cultural heritage. The impact of African and Islamic traditions on the development of the town’s building types and urban layout make for its particular character and uniqueness.

](http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/1189)Stone Town of Zanzibar (pictures)[

The Stone Town of Zanzibar is a fine example of the Swahili coastal trading towns of East Africa. It retains its urban fabric and townscape virtually intact and contains many fine buildings that reflect its particular culture, which has brought together and homogenized disparate elements of the cultures of Africa, the Arab region, India, and Europe over more than a millennium.

](http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/173)Lamu town (pictures)[

Lamu Old Town is the oldest and best-preserved Swahili settlement in East Africa, retaining its traditional functions. Built in coral stone and mangrove timber, the town is characterized by the simplicity of structural forms enriched by such features as inner courtyards, verandas, and elaborately carved wooden doors. Lamu has hosted major Muslim religious festivals since the 19th century, and has become a significant centre for the study of Islamic and Swahili cultures.

](http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/1055)Sukur Landscape

The Sukur Cultural Landscape, with the Palace of the Hidi (Chief) on a hill dominating the villages below, the terraced fields and their sacred symbols, and the extensive remains of a former flourishing iron industry, is a remarkably intact physical expression of a society and its spiritual and material culture.

Ruins of Loropéni (pictures)[

The 11,130m2 property, the first to be inscribed in the country, with its imposing stone walls is the best preserved of ten fortresses in the Lobi area and is part of a larger group of 100 stone enclosures that bear testimony to the power of the trans-Saharan gold trade. Situated near the borders of Côte d’Ivoire, Ghana and Togo, the ruins have recently been shown to be at least 1,000 years old. The settlement was occupied by the Lohron or Koulango peoples, who controlled the extraction and transformation of gold in the region when it reached its apogee from the 14th to the 17th century. Much mystery surrounds this site large parts of which have yet to be excavated. The settlement seems to have been abandoned during some periods during its long history. The property which was finally deserted in the early 19th century is expected to yield much more information.

](http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/1225)Rock-Hewn Churches of Lalibela(pictures)[

The 11 medieval monolithic cave churches of this 13th-century ‘New Jerusalem’ are situated in a mountainous region in the heart of Ethiopia near a traditional village with circular-shaped dwellings. Lalibela is a high place of Ethiopian Christianity, still today a place of pilmigrage and devotion

](http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/18)Fasil Ghebbi in Gondar (pictures)[

In the 16th and 17th centuries, the fortress-city of Fasil Ghebbi was the residence of the Ethiopian emperor Fasilides and his successors. Surrounded by a 900-m-long wall, the city contains palaces, churches, monasteries and unique public and private buildings marked by Hindu and Arab influences, subsequently transformed by the Baroque style brought to Gondar by the Jesuit missionaries.

](http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/19)Royal Palaces of Abomey[

From 1625 to 1900, 12 kings succeeded one another at the head of the powerful Kingdom of Abomey. With the exception of King Akaba, who had his own separate enclosure, they all had their palaces built within the same cob-wall area, in keeping with previous palaces as regards the use of space and materials. The royal palaces of Abomey are a unique reminder of this vanished kingdom.

](http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/323)Aksum (pictures)[

The ruins of the ancient city of Aksum are found close to Ethiopia’s northern border. They mark the location of the heart of ancient Ethiopia, when the Kingdom of Aksum was the most powerful state between the Eastern Roman Empire and Persia. The massive ruins, dating from between the 1st and the 13th century A.D., include monolithic obelisks, giant stelae, royal tombs and the ruins of ancient castles. Long after its political decline in the 10th century, Ethiopian emperors continued to be crowned in Aksum.

](http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/15)Ancient Ksour of Ouadane, Chinguetti, Tichitt and Oualata[

Founded in the 11th and 12th centuries to serve the caravans crossing the Sahara, these trading and religious centres became focal points of Islamic culture. They have managed to preserve an urban fabric that evolved between the 12th and 16th centuries. Typically, houses with patios crowd along narrow streets around a mosque with a square minaret. They illustrate a traditional way of life centred on the nomadic culture of the people of the western Sahara.

](http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/750)

I also linked to a summary of “The Periplus of the Erythraean Sea” which is an old “Greek periplus, describing navigation and trading opportunities from Roman Egyptian ports like Berenice along the coast of the Red Sea, and others along Northeast Africa and India.”

[orcenio]

…and I also linked to an article that made passing reference to an old dam[

a 2,500-year-old dam called Safira in Kohayto. The dam was constructed in 6th century B.C. The style and strength of dam shows how advanced the people were. According to legend, the Queen of Sheba used to drink from that dam. This is not scientifically proved, however.

](http://www.shaebia.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi?archive=16&num=5195&printer=1)A Google search of “Safira dam” brings me to these two youtube videos (I love the internet).

[Lust4Life]

@Malthus

If this were true, one the most intelligent and least crime-ridden peoples in the world would be Egyptians - they have been practicing agriculture and have had cities and writing for far longer than Europeans (they were busy building pyramids when Europeans had the same level of civilization as New Guneans). Another would be the Kushites (Nubians ) - who build such empires as Kerma and Meroe.

And of course Egyptians are Africans, and Nubians are Black Africans. Both were practicing agriculture and city life far longer than Europeans.

Sorry mate but thats completely untrue, the oldest stone builing in the world is Newgrange in what is now Ireland, Stonehenge and many other henges were built BEFORE the Egyptians built the pyramids.

Something of that technical and logistical difficulty required to achieve this requires a quite advanced civilisation.

In the northern part of Britain stone built houses with furniture, inside toilets and running water were built BEFORE the pyramids.

Sea going boats of this period have been found and Europe wide trade and interaction also happened at this time.

It has now been found that agriculture didn’t originate in one place and spread but was at least in a couple of areas (though probably many more) it was discovered independently.

And yes the ancient Egyptians were most definitely Africans, but were culturelly and historically Middle Eastern rather then have any connection with sub Saharan cultures.

Another poster said that sub Saharan civilisation was held back by disease.

Ever heard of the Black Death ?

As to the nasty colonials drawing borders that it seems caused unavoidable wars, which have held back the African advance to civilisation…

Europe and Japan were smouldering ruins at the end of WW2, China didn’t exactly have an easy time of it either.

But they’re amongst the wealthiest nations on earth.

Africa will never advance while apologists blame all their underperformance on the wicked whites.

Start facing up to your own mistakes and you might get somewhere.

Giving aid to Africa is like giving money to an alcoholic, with the same results.

[An_Gadai]

I’m curious, are there any extant African countries where European hegemony resulted in a pretty clear and lasting net good for the society?

[Qin_Shi_Huangdi]

@MrDibble

Who said anything about “Sub-saharan”?Ever hear of a quaint little country called Sudan?

And rulership going “native” doesn’t make it any less colonialism. All that colonialism requires is that control be vested in another parent country, not that colonists totally replace natives. A Black Francophone West African country was no less of a colony even if all the local bureaucrats were “native” - colonialism is about cultural imposition and rulership, not the genetics of the inhabitants.

Is Japan a colony considering its cultural imposition of the West? Is China for that matter as Communism is a product of German philosophy?

@MrDibble

Yeah - “small” kingdoms like Ghana, Ethiopia, Egypt…

The last time I checked Egypt was north of the Sahara. And these kingdoms due to cultural factors could not in so short a time (assuming no colonization starting in the 1600s or so) abandon its old superstitions and develop on par with the West. Even Japan while it adopted technology from the West, took World War II and American occupation to adopt things such as human rights.

No, he doesn’t. Call us when the US government has a free anti-retroviral system in place for its own HIV victims…

Alright, it wasn’t Zuma, sorry but his predecessor Thabo Mbeki certainly was a complete crackpot on AIDS and Zuma himself is not a good example for South Africans with regards to AIDS (consider that he had unprotected sex with a HIV positive woman).

No, he didn’t. Was accused of, but found not guilty…and?

Only after mass and hysterical mob support and sexual relationships between such a “father and daughter” figure are inappropriate.

What does that have to do with anything

Polygamy is an archaic practice and considered barbaric for the last few centuries by all civilized men.

[An_Gadai]

@Qin_Shi_Huangdi

Polygamy is an archaic practice and considered barbaric for the last few centuries by all civilized men.

What about horny civilized men? Did you ask any of them?

[Little_Nemo]

@Qin_Shi_Huangdi

Polygamy is an archaic practice and considered barbaric for the last few centuries by all civilized men.

What about Hugh Hefner? He always appears very civilized.

[Qin_Shi_Huangdi]

@An_Gadai

What about horny civilized men? Did you ask any of them?

@Little_Nemo

What about Hugh Hefner? He always appears very civilized.

Theft is committed by civilized men but it is obviously not civilized.

[An_Gadai]

@Qin_Shi_Huangdi

Theft is committed by civilized men but it is obviously not civilized.

I don’t think it’s considered barbaric by many people. Annoying, unfortunate, terrible but barbaric isn’t a term I’d use with regard to theft usually.

[Little_Nemo]

@Qin_Shi_Huangdi

Theft is committed by civilized men but it is obviously not civilized.

Are you saying that polygamy is a form of theft? Because women are not property. If a man is single it’s not because some other man stole the woman he was entitled to.