What is with the bizarre obsession with stone? Stone was useful in Europe because there is a lot of it lying around and it works well in the climate. But try to weather one Sahelien summer in a European farmhouse, and you’ll be begging for the breezy covered patios and thick cool walls and shaded windows of a traditional African house.
A plague or epidemic with limited duration is hardly the same as the tse-tse fly, which rendered large swaths of the continent indefinitely unsuitable for raising livestock. How would Europe had done if they couldn’t have cows, pigs, sheet and goats? Malaria is actually a bigger deal now than it was in the past, but it has always limited movement since any resistance you develop is limited to the strain in your immediate area. But the tse-tse fly was the real limiting factor.
The main problem was that the colonial era ended. This brought to an end the best government services (infrastructure, schools, hospitals) seen before or since.
Wikipedia has some background info and a map of the current problem and this page has more specialized maps. Here is some info on the extent of the problem right now and how much it costs in lost cattle production, even with modern vector control. It’s always been a major problem, and there is evidence of tsetse fly control from as early as the 14th century.
Tens of thousands of people also die yearly from sleeping sickness (which is pretty curable if caught early) and before modern medicine it was 100% fatal and killed hundreds of thousands. The toll on livestock, however, is what makes it such an economic dealbreaker. Without reliably healthy domestic animals, it’s tough to get enough protein to stop relying on hunting (which has limits as far as population density) and thus hard to develop cities and the organization that comes with that. Large areas without large permanent settlements is an obvious limit on the trade of not only goods, but ideas.
Here is another map showing how cattle production exists in a pretty narrow band between the desert and the tsetse zone. Here is a look at historical tsetse distribution in Southern Africa.
If you look at the map, you find that not only were there not a lot of great kingdoms in the tsetse zone (with the exception of some Gold Coast kingdoms- which were very close to the Sahel where cattle is abundant), but most of the areas outside of the tsetse zone (the Sahel, the coast around Senegal, Southern Africa, the Horn of Africa and lightly infected parts of East Africa) mostly did develop more advanced organized states.
I would be skeptical about the disease explanation too. But for someone holding that position the black death wouldn’t be that much of an issue.
It’s not like bubonic plague was endemic to Europe and “we still did all right”. It came to Europe at a time when the continent was already pretty developed and its main outbreak correlates pretty well with the dark ages.
You could make a case that war between non-neighbouring nations can be a net positive (I’m talking in terms of long-term economics; I would not put a price on human life).
You get in a tech race and mobilize a whole population towards a common goal. Then when it’s over, you generally have a peaceful period where you can consolidate.
Conversely, internal strife, the kind that arbitrary borders cause, has few benefits. The economist Paul Collier estimates that the average civil war costs around 50 years of development. And its legacy is just a greater chance of conflict in future, not any new tech or (productive) changes to society.
Finally, it makes me smile that so many people mention the industrious Chinese now. Growing up, there was plenty of racism about why the chinese remained so poor, especially compared to the Japanese.
Classy, dude. Again, if people have a personal problem with me I’m not sure why they don’t bring that up directly or use the handy “ignore” button.
Cultures tend to develop building techniques that are suited for their environment and te resources at hand. A stone house is nice in a four-season climate, not so much in a two season one. Dinging African cultures for not building in stone would be like China dinging us for not building those cool upturned tile roofs.
And anyway, we don’t have much to learn. Adobe is a popular building material in the US Southwest even today, precisely because it is so well suited to the climate.
You are wrong. They were built at approximately the same time.
Stonehenge:
Newgrange:
Pyramids:
Newgate is not the “oldest stone building in the world”. The megalithic temples of Malta were older. The newly-discovered temple in Turkey is far, far older.
Note that it was built by hunter-gatherers.
The pyramids (particularly the great pyramids of Giza) are far more impressive as monuments, in terms of organization and labour, than Stonehenge. Trust me on this.
The people who built the neolithic monuments dotting Europe did not live in cities and had a level of civilization that more closely appoximates pre-contact Polynesia than Egypt.
The Polynesians built similar megalithc-type monuments:
Erecting giant stones does not require advanced urban civilzations (unless you wish to argue that Easter Island had such?)
Also, the actual oldest temple discovered was built by hunter-gatherers, prior even to the use of agriculture. Massive monuments do not an advanced civilization make.
[quote]
Also not evidence of advanced urbanism. Again, the Polynesians put this to shame, travelling throughout the Pacific with dugout catamarans.
Relevance?
So what? Also, Nubians were clearly “sub saharan Africans”, and had cities and pyramids almost as early as Egyptians!
As others have remarked, the tsetse fly zone was endemic rather than epidemic. All extant societies have been swept from time to type by epidemic disease.
I’m not blaming Africa’s troubles on “wicked Whites”, but on accidents of geography - and refuting the absurd claim that a continent with some of the earliest urbanization in the world has a population somehow deficient in evolutionary terms because of a lack of urban history. That’s just inexcusably ignorant.
You are wrong. They were built at approximately the same time.
Stonehenge:
Newgrange:
Pyramids:
Newgate is not the “oldest stone building in the world”. The megalithic temples of Malta were older. The newly-discovered temple in Turkey is far, far older.
Note that it was built by hunter-gatherers.
The pyramids (particularly the great pyramids of Giza) are far more impressive as monuments, in terms of organization and labour, than Stonehenge. Trust me on this.
The people who built the neolithic monuments dotting Europe did not live in cities and had a level of civilization that more closely appoximates pre-contact Polynesia than Egypt.
The Polynesians built similar megalithc-type monuments:
Erecting giant stones does not require advanced urban civilzations (unless you wish to argue that Easter Island had such?)
Also, the actual oldest temple discovered was built by hunter-gatherers, prior even to the use of agriculture. Massive monuments do not an advanced civilization make.
Sorry but I was replying to an assertation that while the incredibly advanced “Africans” (Read middle eastern ancient Egyptians) were civilised the Europeans were apparently living in small groups as hunter gatherers apparently at the same level as primitive jungle dwellers of recent times .
Stonehenge may or may not have been just an impressive erection of large stones, it might or might not have had much more structure of the erodable kind but it did need…
Firstly an impressive level of civil engineering.
Secondly an impressive amount of social organisation, the henges weren’t built by local people alone, they had to have help from what, is even by today long distances.
They had to be instructed,directed and motivated to do it in the first place.
An impressive logistical set up, not only were some of the stones (and large ones by most standards) brought from long distances, but also the relatively huge amount of labour had to be fed and watered, sheltered and have their bodily functions taken care of without causing disease outbreaks which would have stopped the whole event dead in its tracks.
Personally I don’t think that the people of New Guinea are capable of this but thats only my opinion.
And yes I agree that the pyramids are more impressive but the civilisations were in different climates, different geological environments, had different outlooks and different eco systems.
They were both advanced civilisations but were DIFFERENT.
Oh yes I forgot they were apparently both “around the same time”.
Try telling a bookie that he should pay out because your horse was actually in the same race as the winner.
Good luck mate.
And while civilisation is often equated with urbanisation that is just our present perception of it.
You can have an incredible civilisation without living cheek by jowl with every man and his dog.
This is a bizarre non sequitur. Nobody imposed Communism on the Chinese from outside. And China, too, had a long colonial history, yes.
Check again.
Why not? Other than European exceptionalism, why not?
What? Are you under the impression that pre-war Japan was a lawless hellhole? People had legal rights.
I never said he was a sterling man, but you were just **wrong **about the facts. And Clinton? Berlosconi? Sarkozy? These are moral men? The West is in a position to judge?
… which happens to be true. The indisputable fact remains: in terms of everything that makes up civilization (cities, writing, etc.), the Africans, or at least some of them, were far in advance of Europeans, in terms of antiquity.
There you would be wrong. New Guinea has a well-established Megalithic monumental culture. Cite:
In summary, New Guineans built megalithic structures similar to those built in Europe.
No, they were nowhere near as advanced. There is nothing to indicate that europeans developed state-level civilizations, had cities or writing - all indicia of “advanced” civilization - at the time that these were enjoyed by Egyptians and Nubians.
Well, if you insist - the pyramids were built BEFORE Stonehenge, contrary to your express assertion that “…Stonehenge and many other henges were built BEFORE the Egyptians built the pyramids”.
Stonehenge: circa 2500 BC.
Pyramid of Djoser: circa 2667 to 2648 BC.
To my mind, that’s “about the same time” - for one, neither date is absolutely certain and could be out by centuries, particularly in the case of Stonehenge - but if you MUST have a WINNER, it would surely be … the pyramids. They are at least 148 years prior to Stonehenge, based on available evidence (approximations taken as true).
So … would you say that the New Guineans are “civilized”?
Well I’m not into recreational debate as such, feeling very knackered and about to get my head down.
But putting theoreticals behind us,perhaps you could tell us all about the great sub Saharan exploreres who actually left the continent, the overseas trade networks that they established, the incredible scientific discoveries that they made, (ANY science will do, mathematics, physics,chemistry,biology, medecine, logic,whatever),
Perhaps you could tell us about their literature…?
Except that there doesn’t seem to be any written language invented by the sub Saharans.
Ah I see No written history.
Perhaps you could inform us about their intent to make human rights a serious item, plus abolishing,for example slavery…?
Oh but the Africans are still to this day practicing it.
Not as indentured workers , but as full blown slaves.
There are more slaves, predominatley African slaves ,enslaved by Africans, today then there has been in all of history.
Wiki is not the most trustworthy of cites so I suggest that you go directly to the U.N. internet source.
I’ve been there, I’ve seen it, perhaps your Ebonics tutor can make it clearer to me .
With the caveat that being “Whitey”, I’m obviously a racist.
No written languages in Sub-Saharan Africa? No History or literature? No exploration or trade? No science or philosophy? Not so.
For many of those items, take a look at the Aksumites:
There you have it - sub-saharan Africans creating an “important trading nation”, trading with Rome and India, even acting as colonialists outside of Africa (!!!), named as one of the four major world powers of its day …
As for “overseas trade networks they established”:
Not too shabby, eh?
They certainly had written language:
As for scholarship, the most famous centre in sub-saharan africa was probably the masdjid of Sankore, part of the famous university of Timbuktu, in which “literature covering topics of science, math, and medicine are also observed, among other disciplines”:
…
All of the accomplishments you seek have, in point of fact, been accomplished by sub-saharan Africans. Obviously they are not incapable of science, literature, forming trade networks, etc. - because they have done all those things.
I thought the University of Timbuktu was established by the Tuareg Imashagan? These were saharan nomads with mixed ancestry. Some have significant sub-saharan ancestry as they were involved in operating the trans-Saharan slave trade.
Timbuktu’s golden age was during the Songhai empire.
Again, “black” and “not black” are not meaningful terms in the Sahel, unless you are specifically talking about Europeans. The Taurags are not “mixed race” anything. They are simply Taurags, as they have been for thousands of years.
The most brutal slave trade in Africa right now is child slave labor for use on cocoa plantations, the majority of which gets bought by foreign companies. Traditional African slavery is something a bit different. It’s more like a very heavy caste/serf system. Slaves can and do work for wages, buy themselves out of slavery, and even own slaves themselves. It’s bad and needs to be abolished, but it is it’s own system and not like what we think of when it comes to classical “slavery.”
