American becomes Japanese Citizen
This is Arudou Debito’s (David Ardwinkle) website. He is an American that became a Japanese citizen. Pretty interesting stuff considering the subject that we are discussing here. His site also contains links for a discrimination lawsuit that he started after he was not allowed to enter a public bathhouse (onsen) because of his race.
Look, if I just walked into a bank I picked at random and demanded a loan, I’d get a polite but flat refusal too. Haven’t you established any long-term banking accounts in your 9 years in Japan? That is how things are done, on the basis of long term relationships. I have worked with many Japanese banks here in the US, and in most cases it took me over 2 years of continual visits to conclude a deal that would have taken mere weeks with US companies.
As I said before, I know plenty of foreigners in Japan who have obtained credit cards and bank loans. It is possible, you just need to work harder finding a bank you want to do business with. And why the hell would you want to do business with any bank that discriminates?
All this discussion reminds me of a famous essay by the writer Murakami Haruki. He told of his own experiences as a Japanese, facing discrimination from other Japanese people. He described being turned away from renting houses or apartments because he was “one of those people.” That is, a bar owner. People discriminate against all sorts of classes of people in Japan. My friends over there are having the same problems, the ones that work for NTT or Sony have no problems getting apartments, the ones that work for US corporations have plenty of problems. Maybe you should have a chat with your company? You have to know how to do your proper nemawashi. Use your company’s influence with its own bank to smooth your path. That’s what my friends did, with fairly good success.
I know this is a minor point, China Guy, but Fujimori was the president of Peru not Chile.
Doh! This would be why I usually stick to Chinese related topics…
I would also second the notion of getting your company to go to bat for you. I also understand that may not be practical in your case.
No, there is nothing random about this at all. I have been dealing with the same bank for about 2 years now. It is not that I don’t have any history with this bank - my monthly pay as well as my wife’s are direct deposited to our accounts there.
I chose this bank due to where I live, easy access to ATM’s, and also due to the fact that my company recommends it due to ease of transfering payroll funds.
Yes. No. Sort of. There are no laws that I know of that prohibit discrimination on the basis of race. However, about two years ago a Brazilian woman successfully sued a jewelery store in Hamamatsu, Shizuoka Prefecture, for refusing to let her in the store because she was a foreigner (they even had a “no foreigners” sign posted, 'cause we’re all thieves, don’t you know). The judge ruled in her favor on the grounds that Japan had signed a UN international human rights treaty that prohibited racial discrimination, which applied in this case even if no local or national laws were broken. There still are no laws on the books, AFAIK, so to bring a complaint you would have to start another civil lawsuit which would have to be reviewed by another judge (although this time with a precedent).
However, most companies are not so blunt as to post a “no foreigners” sign on the front door. They can have a wide range of conditions attached to their services which may be reasonable by themselves, but can easily be abused. For example, a bank doesn’t have to give loans to bad credit risks. Foreigners leave the country all the time, can’t hold down steady jobs, etc., so they are by definition bad credit risks. Trying to demonstrate that a company was applying its (supposedly universal) rules in a discriminatory fashion would be much more difficult, and much less likely to convince a judge. Bringing about a significant change in social and business behavior by means of a lawsuit would be even less likely (as in snowball-in-hell) to succeed.
I think I know who you heard that from: me, before I came here and was just another dumb Japanophile college student. I seriously wince at how black-and-white (yellow-and-white?) I viewed everything back then. Cluelessness makes the the world a much simpler place, doesn’t it?
More civilized? Well, I would agree in some respects, but strongly disagree in others. More forward thinking? I’d be willing to debate that.
–sublight.
sublight - IMHO you are correct on all accounts.
I meant that there is predjudice against foreigners in a more general sense… not simply financially (although there certainly IS that… maybe not as much as in Japan.). I tried for years to get a cell phone, but was rejected each time until they finally produced a system where you can buy a used phone and pre-pay for the time.
Regarding credit cards, yes you can get them from the bank where you do business, but as far as I know (keeping in mind that I’m going on second-hand stories alone) foreigners are required to pay the balance in full every month (at least at Cho-Hung bank… if you know of another bank that doesn’t do this, please give me the name! I’d be interested…).
This is somewhat understandable: they are afraid that a foreigner will run up a huge bill and then take off for their home country without paying. My understanding is that a lot of foreigners have, in fact, done so (and I know a couple of them! One of the teachers who worked for me a few years ago when I was academic director of an English school ran up a HUGE phone bill before he took off, and I ended up covering it…)
As for predjudice in a more general sense, there is quite a lot of it in subtle ways… reluctance of taxi drivers to pick you up (probably because they don’t speak English and assume that I don’t speak Korean), being kicked out of the lobby of a building because they don’t want a foreigner hanging out (I was waiting for a friend who was late, and it was the building I lived in!:rolleyes:), etc.
One time, and I swear that this is true, Astrogirl and I were out with a married couple who had a baby. Married couple left the baby with us for about 20 minutes while they went shopping, and AG and I were pushing the baby in a stroller as we walked around. A police car followed us the entire time, putting along at walking speed behind us as we walked… when the married couple caught up to us and it became obvious that it was THEIR baby, the police car left (don’t ask me what the sense in that was!)…
Oddly enough, once they realize that you speak some Korean, all this evaporates, and they are the friendliest people I have ever met!
Hm. Can your bank perhaps give you a secured credit card, a card that’s secured by a deposit from you? As in, you give them $1000, and they give you a card with a $1000 limit, but it’s not a check or debit card (it doesn’t draw from the deposit, the deposit is just there as insurance)? That might be a good way to start building good will and good credit…
Damn, Hashiruya, that stinks, but it’s not out of character for Jpan. The Japanese are some of the most racist folks I’ve ever encountered, and that was just as a traveler. At least they’re polite to your face. The Koreans are equally racist, and they’ll get in your face directly. I’ve had any number of late night run-ins in Itaewon and Chongno with drunk Korean men who want to start some shit with the foreign fuck infesting uri nara.
Astroboy14, surely you’ve had some drunken ajoshi make nasty comments about yang galbo and waygook shiphal seki. Every interracial couple I knew in Korea had ugly incidents happen to them.
well, for now I am going to go see our company’s financial controller tomorrow. Our company has been doing business with the same bank for years now. I use the same bank although it is a different branch. As a starting point I am hoping that he will at least give me a letter of reference or something to back up the fact that I am indeed working and prospects of continuing employment here are indeed very good. Maybe this will get my foot in the door so to speak.
Yeah, of course… but surprisingly enough, that has more or less stopped during the past year or so!
This place has really changed in the 6 or so years that I’ve been here. Astrogirl and I rarely hear any comments these days… though I know that a lot of people are thinking things (we still get the stares!).
I live in Ulsan, which according to certain locals is the most foreigner friendly city in Korea. Specifically, I live in Hogye, which is a small town on the outskirts of Ulsan where everyone knows who “Joe teacher” is. This might explain why I haven’t encountered the same sort of racism as Astroboy and gobear.
When SES and I started dating we expected to have some “ugly incidents”, but thankfully we haven’t had anything worth mentioning. It’s not even usual for us to be stared at. The drunken ajoshis around here are more likely to want to buy me a drink than to kick my ass… given any large group of middle aged men in Hogye, it’s a pretty good bet that at least one of them is the father of one of my students.
Sigh… Now I feel like such a wide eyed innocent.
Oops. I just came.
Ah! In my experience, the farther one gets from the big US army base in Seoul, the friendlier the Korean people are (make of this what you will)… especially if you might be the teacher of one of their children!
But, you’re dating SES?? An entire female Korean pop group? Wow! You dog, you! A couple of the women in SES are HOT too!
While I would have a hard time pinnning down any blantant examples of racism that I experienced whilst living in Osaka (6 short months) there was certainly a pervading negative attitude. Given the culture of deferential politeness a short term traveller can often feel almost revered. It is when you stay a little longer than you begin to realise the perception of yourself as being something on a slightly lower rung on the evolutionary ladder; an attitude that some Japanese seem to hold.
Again no blatant incidents that I can cite , just a general feeling of being unwelcome and not a full and able participant in Japanese society. Despite being the guest of one of Osaka’s best known and more influential families I was oftentimes denied access and made to feel very much an outsider.
Yes, Japan is a racist society (as to some extent are the societies where each and every member of the SDMB come from), but things, I believe, are moving in the right direction. I’ve been here for almost fifteen years, but an increasing number of institutions and individuals are at least starting to feel embarrassed about being racist. A few months ago I got a new cellphone, and the office where I did the paperwork said that, in addition to my credit card details, they would require a photocopy of my passport. (The credit card was a Japanese one–more info later.) My wife (Japanese citizen) was getting a new phone at the same time, so I asked them why she didn’t have to show her passport too. After a few minutes’ conference with the branch manager the clerk I was dealing with accepted the application.
Having a Japanese S.O. definitely helps, but only if you are dealing directly with someone who has some influence on the proceedings. I find that the indignant “gaijin” asking, at least indirectly “are you being racist?” has some effect, but the Japanese S.O. looking scornfully at the clerk or manager with a “what century are you living in, buddy?” look on his/her face is more influential.
BTW, the clerks in computer stores may want to give you credit, but the credit companies themselves are outside of the influence of this technique. (They only get a fax, not “The Stare ™”
Anyway, I have TWO Japanese credit cards (Visa) from the Seiyu chain of department stores. The first, obtained about six years ago, was obtained by a variation of the previously-mentioned technique, and the second was obtained by mail application, with hardly a second thought (they did send the forms back once for correction). (Why card number two? Mileage!)
My advice: Go to Seiyu department store with a Japanese friend/spouse during one of their “Get a Seiyu credit card” campaigns (several each month). Be reasonable, and if they seem to be on the point of refusing, ask why, get your friend to ask why, and ask any Japanese person walking in the area why?
I love brackets! (Perhaps too much)
You’ve discovered my secret. I’m not quite as innocent as I claimed to be this morning… Dating three pop stars at the same time is a lot of hard work, but I find it to be very rewarding. Oh, they tried to fight over me at first, but eventually I convinced them that there was enough of me to go around, if you get what I’m saying… Not only am I their boyfriend, I am also the male vocalist at the beginning of the song “Shy Boy”. Modesty prevented me from telling…
I’m not convincing anyone, am I? Oh well. Had to try. Seriously, S, E, and S are the initials of my SO when her name is written in English.
Getting back to the original Korean hijack for a minute, I haven’t encountered much real racism but I have encountered a fair bit of ignorance and stereotyping. Mostly minor things, like people believing that I can’t eat hot food. Sometimes strange things, like the lady who thought we didn’t have chickens in Canada (to her credit, she thought that the reason we didn’t have chickens was that we ate turkey instead, which is at least a bit more plausible). I can’t think of anything else right now, but I’m sure I have some interesting stories somewhere…
I don’t even have any horror stories regarding SES’s parents. At least, no more horror stories than a Korean man engaged to a first born daughter would have… and even that’s over with now. I had dinner at their house yesterday, and Umuni cooked a special yangneom beef something or another for me (SES didn’t know what the recipe was called and I don’t either). She made a special point of mentioning that she cooked it specifically for me, since I don’t get to have meals at their house very often. She worries that I’m not eating right because I’m a single man living alone and my parents are far away in Canada. I was wearing the shirt that Umuni bought me a while back so that she could see how it fit. SES brought out the pictures of our recent Canadian vacation and I explained who each of my relatives were. SJK, her brother, asked me about his latest computer problem. All in all, it was a very enjoyable day.
I feel pathetic… I should get out of the pit and head to MPSIMS or someplace. I have nothing to bitch about in this thread. Fuck.
Astroboy- I’ve had similar thoughts about prejudice and proximity to army bases, but not enough experience to really make a case of it.
Nerv,
thanks for the advice. I agree that being indignant is helpful - but only where it can have an impact. I am planning to spend Wednesday morning at the local bank with my wife and see what their loan office has to say. Since that meeting will be face to face, perhaps I can make some strides there. Furthermore, I am hoping to have my company’s letter of recommendation with me to add some fuel to the fire.
Thanks again for your input.