wherein hasiriya rants about discrimination in Japan...

The BBQ Pit
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My first rant…lets see, it goes a little something like this:

I have lived in Japan for the last 9 years now. Currently I’m working for an American hotel corporation as an IT manager. I speak, read, and write Japanese fluently. I carry a foreign residents card as well as a Japanese drivers license. I am 26 years old and my wife is Japanese. Furthermore, I pay Japanese taxes and Japanese social security. I suppose for the most part, I live, work, and play, just like anyone else here…

So why the FUCK can’t I get a fucking loan or a credit card in this country?

It happened again today and the outcome is the same as all the other times…denied. When I ask why, there is never an explaination. I have never had a credit card - U.S. or otherwise. I have paid off loans that I received from U.S. banks with no trouble. but that doesn’t apply here

I went to a computer store today to purchase a computer system for at home. I see the signs for store credit cards and I say to myself - hmmm, maybe this time will be different. So I spend 20 minutes filling out all the necessary paperwork and provide proof of who I am and where I work. Furthermore, since I have learned long ago that the “Gaijin” (foreigner) always needs a Japanese co-signer for any type of loan, I filled in my wifes name and where she works. The store associate double checks my information and says that she will fax it to the credit approval company immediately. She also says that it will take a minimum of three working days to complete the background check to approve the loan. Ok, no sweat, I can wait three days, and I can understand why they would want to be careful - after all we are talking about a purchase of about $7500.00. No problem. I decided to return to the office.

On the way back to the office, I realized that I made a minor mistake and put the wrong date for my wife’s birthday. As soon as I returned to the office I called the store to inform them of my mistake. Now then, at this point only 30 minutes have passed since I was just in the store. I get the clerk on the phone and she immediately tells me the loan has been disapproved. Why? No reason. What the fuck? If it takes 3 working days to complete a credit check and you turn an application around in 30 minutes - including the time it took to fax that fuckin five page document - how in the hell can you immediately deny a loan??? I venture a pretty good guess that someone looked at the name and realized “hey, he’s not Japanese!” and stamped it accordingly.

If this was the first time I’ve seen this maybe I wouldn’t be upset. It happened last year almost in the same way when I bought my car. When I rented my apartment - with my Japanese wife - the agent had to ask the owner if it was ok to let a foreigner rent the place. Uhh, Hello? I have been here long enough to know how to get by in Japan. I doubt that my “foreigness” could have much impact on your piece of property.

I used to think that maybe it was just a matter of income. At this point in my life though I am gainfully employed and I make a good living. My wife works full time as well, so we aren’t doing bad at all financially. I don’t see how that could be a problem. My wife has a good credit history, as does her family. I have virtually no credit history - so what is the problem?

Granted, I can understand where some foreigners have received their money and immediately fled the country. I can understand why they want a co-signer. However, with my background - why am I perceived to be a risk? Sorry, I just can’t put it together. Sure, I could just pay cash, but dammit having plastic sure would be nice.

So anyway, fellow dopers, this is my tale of woe. I am sick and tired of what I perceive to be discrimation. Probably the worst feeling that I have is that I enjoy everything else about being here, but no matter what I do, there doesn’t seem to be anything I can do about this problem. I feel rather helpless - and pissed off!

Thanks for listening.

-Hashiriya-

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      • First: I do not live in Japan.
  • Second: $7500.00 for a home computer? If that’s not a typo, I sure hope it’s a better setup than the stuff I can get locally. - MC
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Umm… you’ve lived in Japan for nine years, have a Japanese wife, and you haven’t naturalized yet? Perhaps you haven’t heard, but recently the naturalization process has been liberalized, and you don’t have to give up your other passport (at least for most countries, like the US). You could probably get a loan easily if you were naturalized and could wave your Japanese passport at them. All they’re looking for is some assurance that you’re not going to emigrate and leave them stuck with the loan.
However, there is a major lawsuit from someone in exactly your position, he’s the president of the Foreign Correspondent’s Club in Tokyo. He might not win, but he’s doing some major damage to old discriminatory patterns in the process. Don’t hold your breath.

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I’m an American who lived in Japan from 91-94 working for an investment bank. I wasn’t an “expat” but made over 10 million yen salary.

Looking for an apartment in Japan was the first time in my life that I figured out why some ethnic minorities in US would be hostile or outright want to do me harm even though they didn’t know me personally. Jesus, I had a job, I had money, I had references and over half the time the property agent wouldn’t let me in the door. It took like 2 months to find a place that would take me with the personal guarantee of the General Manager of the investment bank.

During part of that time, I was so frustrated and simply pissed off at the “Japanese” in general. It wasn’t directed to anyone Japanese that I knew personally. I had people bump me in the train station, and I would be instantly filled with rage. Then if they acknowledged the slight with an apologetic word or gesture, it would be back to a personal relationship and no problem.

Not proud of my reaction. By no means does it mean I know what it’s like to experience racial prejudice in the US. all I’m saying is that I was on the recieving end of some nasty racism, and it’s made me more aware of both sides now.

My Chinese wife, who graduated from Waseda, has her own experiences with racism in Japan.

FWIW, I am interviewing for a really cool big international expat position that would land me back in Tokyo.

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Thank you all for your input.

MC - Apple Macintosh G4 Dual 800 + 17" TFT Flatscreen + Wide Format Printer + Scanner. On the side I do a lot of graphic design work and this is my first home studio setup.
The thing that really sucks is that I have clients waiting for designs and the home studio would really help right about now. The idea is spend money to make money…kinda funny if you can’t spend it, huh.

Chas E. - I have thought about it, but my fear was that although the US would allow dual citizenship (they won’t officially recognize it), Japan would not. Therefore I would be forced to give up my U.S. citizenship. Maybe the rules have changed. I will look into it. Thank you. Also, do you have any further info into the lawsuit that you mentioned? I know of one that is going on in Hokkaido, but I am not familiar with the suit in Tokyo. I would just like to see what the claims of the case are.

China Guy - I know your frustration. Furthermore, I can understand your wife’s experiences as well. Japan seems to have a “special attitude” for other Asians as well. It is a shame for someone to come out of such a well known school and still get treated poorly. Good luck with your interview, I hope it goes well for you.

All in all I do like Japan. That is what has kept me here for 9 years. Lately, however, I have become increasingly frustrated by this loan situation.

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Japan won’t recognize your dual citizenship, but they’ll ignore your second citizenship. Just don’t wave your US passport at customs when arriving in Japan. I have some friends who did exensive research in dual citizenships, and the current situation is, as long as you don’t voluntarily renounce your US citizenship directly to the US State Dept, you are still a US citizen. Since Japanese naturalization demands that you renounce all other citizenships, the US State Dept has decided this is coersion and the US does not recognize coerced renunciation of citizenship. It’s a lot more complex than this, I’ll try to hunt up some web info for you.
As far as credit and etc, we’ve batted this subject around several times on usenet, and many expats reported they have successfuly gotten credit cards and loans, although it’s about equal 50/50 rejection/acceptance rates. Most expats just let their wives fill out the applications for them, even though it’s your info and your name, their obviously native handwriting is a big help to acceptance, for some odd reason.
I don’t know anything more about the lawsuit, it was in the news many months ago but you know how slowly lawsuits progress in Japan. But I’m sure if you phoned up the Foreign Correspondent’s Club, the president would talk your ear off about it.
Hey BTW, you don’t happen to know any good Mac-related job leads in the Tokyo area, do you? I’m planning on heading over for a bit of shuushoku just after the start of the new year, I’m sure I could find some good prepress stuff (that’s my specialty) but it helps to do some groundwork before you go over, especially with the economy as sucky as it is lately.

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This thread had some good links and might provide some info for you regarding dual citizenship: http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=82670

good luck

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All I can say here is: welcome to Asia!

Same goes in Korea…

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re: getting citizenship. It doesn’t matter if you’re the Emperor’s love child, you’re still not getting the loan. I’ve applied for credit cards, or rather, tried to apply for them, and I’ve never even gotten to the point where they ask about citizenship. I get rejected the minute I sit down. I was surprised, though, that the company wouldn’t give you a reason. They’re usually very forthright about saying “gaijin ga dame desu.” If they want to be polite, however, they’ll just say “gaijin ga chotto muzukashii desu.” And I’ve got my own pit rant brewing on the subject of realtors.

The solution? Go to Citibank. They’ll gouge you on the annual fees and interest rates because they know they’re your only choice, but they’ll treat you like an actual customer.

Overall, I like it here too, but god, some things need to be changed. Perhaps the best way would be for me, the next time someone asks how Japan can become more “international” (the nation’s meaningless mantra for the past 20 years), to take them on a little trip to a bank, a loan office, and a realtor’s, then top it off with a visit to a night club. Then let them reach their own conclusions.

–sublight

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So why does a country that is held up frequently to me as being infinitely more civilized and forward-thinking than the United States allow its financial institutions to legally discriminate in these matters on the basis of race? :confused:

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Anthracite: Because the people saying that are wrong? Just a guess :wink: .

I believe in some ways, Japan IS more civilized than the United States. In other ways, it is rather less. The only reason racism is not a pervasive problem in Japan is because it is an exceptionally ( very exceptionally ) homogenous society, with very few minorities to cause stress. But xenophobia is very deeply rooted in Japanese culture and history ( and not just modern history ). Something the homogeneity of Japan probably just reinforces.

Frankly I think one could compare almost any two cultures and come out with advantages for each. At least, I think I could. Doesn’t mean I wouldn’t prefer one over the other. But I think could find something to admire in most societies.

  • Tamerlane
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Oops. Let me clarify. I meant maybe the people holding Japan out as the unqualified exemplar of the perfect civilization are wrong :slight_smile: .

  • Tamerlane
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Don’t know if this applies, or not. Getting credit or a loan is very difficult if you don’t have collateral (I’m guessing here that you may not) or more credit. It wasn’t till I was 30 that I was able to get a credit card, simply because I signed up to buy something from Fingerhut. By making the monthly payments, I started a credit history, and thus got a credit rating.

I work in a credit union, so I’d have to say start out slowly. You say you’ve never had credit – maybe getting a SMALL limit card for a start – buy one or two items a month and pay the bill in full. It would help your credit rating and might make getting a loan easier. One of the factors we look at while making a loan is how good the credit rating is. If the person doesn’t have one, it makes it harder for us to determine what kind of risk they are, and thus it acts as a derogatory note.

Sorry, but that’s just the way it is.

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      • HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!
  • Oh Ant, you’re a pip… - MC
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When I lived in Japan, it took awhile but you knew you were going to be treated differently at times than a Japanese. Sometimes that was a good thing, and sometimes it was a bad thing. What irked my drawers was when they would not say it was because you were a foreigner.

It took me probably a year to realize that when a Japanese said “chotto muzukashii desu” (it could be difficult), this was not to be taken as a literal translation. the phrase “it could be difficult” was about as strong a negative statement as could be uttered by a human being. It did not mean there was a possibility.

So, I appreciated when I wanted something and was told it could be difficult before actually getting my hopes up. It’s better to be discriminated up front than to jump through the hoops first.

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pip? No, it’s a serious question. Yes, discrimination does occur in the US on a daily basis - but not officially sanctioned. You can bet if a loan officer in the US came out and said you were denied because you were a “gaijan”, or a “n****r”, or whatever racial slur one picks to use, there would be people marching in the streets, and lawsuits a’ plenty. And Federal regulators visiting, most likely.

So what I’m asking is - is it really legal to discriminate financially on the basis of race or national origin in Japan?

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I haven’t experienced anything in Korea that compares with hashiriya’s story. Recently, I took out a loan from my bank for 2.5M won. I had to sign a few papers, show my alien registration card, and they handed me the money. Simple as anything.

One of the other foreign teachers at my school has a Korean-issued mastercard. It apparently wasn’t all that difficult. I’ve been offered credit card application forms by miniskirt-clad young women outside of banks and department stores, so it doesn’t really seem as though the credit card companies are trying to discourage me from signing up for a card.

This is not to say that I haven’t encountered my share of prejudice and racism in Korea… Those things exist here, just like anywhere else. The institutional discrimination described by hashiriya seems to me to be a much worse thing, one which I’m glad I have no first hand knowledge of.

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I am very surprised to read that Americans can achieve citizenship in Japan. I once read several years ago that third generation Koreans in Japan were barred from gaining citizenship. My impression was that foreigners, even foreign ethnic Japanese would have difficulty in acquiring citizenship. Is this policy no longer true, or was I misinformed?

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In regards to citizenship, from what I have read it is not impossible, however, it is a long hard road. The process is lengthy and drawn out. The Ministry of Justice (MoJ) goes as far as testing your Japanese skills and inspecting your house to see if you have assimilated to living in Japan. I don’t know about you all, but I personally don’t care to have government officials walking through my house seeing if I have the right quantity of tofu and nato in the fridge. Also, I understand that the whole process is much easier if you are American, English, etc. Folks from other Asian countries need not apply in some cases (Malaysia, Phillipine, etc.). It is extremely difficult if you are unfortunate enough to have been born in a country that the Japanese government has unofficially decided is “unfavorable”.

Now, as to the image of Japan being more civilized - I can understand how many people would say this. This is generally the way Japan is portrayed. However, for those who have lived here, there seems to be a different view. A view of a different set of rules for those who are not Japanese. I my case, I have been very fortunate in that I have assimilated well here. I am usually accepted by other Japanese as one of there own because of my language skills and because of the way that I think. However, these credit companies do not care to get to know me and my background. For that matter, I cannot even get them to look at my background. Applications are denied on principal.

To make matters worse, when they deny the application, they explain it like you are already supposed to know how the system works. “Gaijin wa muri desho” (It is impossible for foreigners, you know.) or “Anata nara mo wakatteiru desho - muzukashii desu.” (You should already understand - it is difficult.) The financial institutions immediately state that well, since you are a foreigner - you could skip town or leave the country. This is why they require a Japanese co-signer. Again, there is an exception - my wife, who is Japanese, cannot be my co-signer because she could skip town with me! ARRRGHH!

Anyway, I am still looking around. I will check into Citibank and see what they can offer. It is rather pathetic that my own Japanese bank - who I have three accounts with (and my wife’s account as well) will not back me up on this either.

Thank you all again for your replies.

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I’m no expert on Japan. The only foreigners I can think of that received citizenship when I lived there were Konishiki and Akebono. Both sumo stars and at the time of their naturalization, attempting to gain the highest rank of yokozuna. Akebono eventually gained that rank, and led the opening ceremony of the Nagano Winter Olympics.

Then there is the case of is Alberto Fujimori and his family, formerly of Chile, who were somehow considered Japanese citizen.

Others on this board would know much better than I, but it’s almost impossible to obtain Japanese citizenship.