Oh, you were joking? After my camping accident, I sometimes have a hard time detecting subtle humor. This stick that got lodged in my ass can be quite distracting.
NOC stands for nonofficial cover, and, according to Wikipedia (my source for the latest spy info) refers to people who are spies who do not have official status such as being an embassy employee or an ambassador’s wife. Being a NOC means you will be disavowed if caught. Whereas, the official status means you are generally known to the intelligence service of the country you are in.
The ambassador’s wife has official status no matter where she goes. She will be known as such. I don’t see how she can possibly be a NOC with official status. Inherently contradictory.
But you’re right, it doesn’t matter.
Yeah, I know what you mean.
Kaylasdad
I don’t think they’ve been trying to discredit the information Wilson shared, but rather his motives in sharing it. You’ll recall the adminstration backed off it’s stance on the yellowcake and admitted they shouldn’t have said it in pretty short order.
I think Wilson’s motives are fair game, though.
Thank you for clarifying that. It was my impression that they were trying to discredit the information by virtue of its association with Joe Wilson. I don’t recall the timelines of yellowcake assertion -> Wilson piece -> withdrawal of assertion, myself, but I’ll see what I can learn through further research.
Regards,
LEFTWINGCUTESEYSEMANTICBITCH
I have my timeline straight, doofus. She attended the LSE and the college of Europe and graduated the last in 1995, as I wrote.
Well, yes, they did, didn’t they? Seeing as how they were flat busted and the documents they based this fantasy on turned out to be blatant and amateurish forgeries…yeah, that’s very forthright of them. You are welcome to believe that they would have acted the same way if they might have had a chance to get away with it. Their record for open candor being what it isn’t.
So that’s it? Thats all you got left? Is it time for your victory limp?
So what do the roll eyes mean? You agree with RTFirefly? Or were they just a typo?
Bravo, elucidator, you are a freaking psychic, predicting this almost a full day before Scylla fulfilled it.
Did you get your false quotations from the elucidator school of deliberate prevarications and strawmen?
I like Rustman because he actually worked with Plame, and he’s not an obvious total lunatic like Johnson.
But I can see why you think Johnson’s swell :rolleyes:
Versus Johnson who Hentor look balanced and moderate, and lays claim to no association with Plame, yet magically has information that nobody else will confirm, and which oops which would have been dangerously specific, inherently damaging, and directly compromising to agents in specific locations had it been true. It’s self-refuting, the guy’s a wingnut.
Her parents claim to have known, and while some articles interview some specific neighbors like the Tillotsons this is hardly a comprehensive sample. There is some serious dispute on this and even Fitzgerald/Fitzpatrick simply states that it was not “widely” known, which seems to indicate that there was some knowledge. Since it’s in dispute this is hardly a refutation.
Or they can be totally off the wall wingnuts like Johnson.
Those “facts” are heavily disputed.
Not quite. Just because the facts are in dispute doesn’t mean that Rustman is incorrect. Do you have evidence to suggest that Rustman has an axe to grind that you care to share?
I get so freakin’ tired of idiots who never get it through their head that others can scroll up and see what they wrote.
Like I said, she graduated from Penn State in 1985. Do you or do you not disagree with that, and if so, do you have a cite to back you up?
Yes, she took classes at other institutions later on. But she was recruited into the CIA in 1985, straight out of Penn State. Do you or do you not disagree with that, and if so, do you have a cite to back you up?
It is far from unknown for persons to pursue graduate degrees without taking time off from their careers. I know several people who’ve done exactly that. Do you have a cite that Plame wasn’t working for the CIA while she was taking graduate classes?
Nah, if I wanted to learn about prevarications and strawmen, I’m addressing the expert, and I’d go straight to him. Why do you ask?
Who the fuck is Johnson??
Versus Johnson who Hentor look balanced and moderate, and lays claim to no association with Plame, yet magically has information that nobody else will confirm, and which oops which would have been dangerously specific, inherently damaging, and directly compromising to agents in specific locations had it been true. It’s self-refuting, the guy’s a wingnut.
Or they can be totally off the wall wingnuts like Johnson.
[/quote]
I don’t care how big a wingnut your Johnson is. Just quit whipping it out in our discussion, OK? You only need to convince your wife that you’re a man; I don’t really care.
Wow, she told her parents. Well then, her cover was definitely blown. Just like when she told her husband.
It ought to be easy enough to find one neighbor who will admit to knowing, if as Rustman says, lots of her neighbors knew.
Just one, and you’re golden.
What I have is exactly what I’ve stated: if her CIA employment was so widely known as he suggests, it should be easy to find one friend or neighbor who could back that up. So far, Rustman seems to have no supporting evidence of a claim that should be a cinch to support. Until he can do that, one must assume that there’s a good chance he’s BSing.
Because we have no way of verifying his other claims, but this one’s easily verifiable if true, so the failure of anyone (including the scads of people who’d like to discredit Plame and Wilson) to do so comes as close to proving a negative as one is likely to get.
No. I cited my definition and sourced it.
Yes. Apparently you weren’t paying attention.
No. That’s not true. If you think it is please cite that as a condition of covert under Title 18, United States Code, Section 793 [the Espionage Act]
This is true.
Yes. Other sources say she did not serve abroad after she was called home to Langley after the Aldritch Ames outing, married Wilson, had twins, suffered sever post-partum depression etc. etc.
I don’t mind people making mistakes but I hate when they are a prick about it. The two conditions of covert are: 1. Serving abroad in the last five years and 2. The making specific efforts to conceal her identity. I didn’t make it up. That’s what it says in Title 18, United States Code, Section 793 [the Espionage Act]. I cited Fitzgerald quoting it.
“If Libby knowingly disclosed information about Plame’s status with the CIA, Libby would appear to have violated Title 18, United States Code, Section 793 [the Espionage Act] if the information is considered “information respecting the national defense.” In order to establish a violation of Title 50, United States Code, Section 421 ], it would be necessary to establish that Libby knew or believed that Plame was a person whose identity the CIA was making specific efforts to conceal and who had carried out covert work overseas within the last 5 years.”
Now, you may wish to argue that simply having her status as “classified” is a specific effort to conceal, but the act itself makes it clear that more specific efforts are required than simply calling it classified as it makes these efforts in addition to the classified status.
http://foi.missouri.edu/bushinfopolicies/protection.html
I have taken these specific efforts to mean providing an active cover and I think that’s a fair interpretation.
Johnson is eminently dismissable.
Rustman was a genuine NOC, and Plame’s boss for a time. He had much higher ranking than Johnson, served over 20 years as a spymaster compared to Johnson’s 4-5 (in an unknown capacity) and shows no appearance of being a wingnut running around opining that Rove is to blame for his mother’s suicide.
He is not measured or careful at all in his statements.
Do you really want to hang your hat on this Johnson guy? You better take a good look at the shit he says first. He makes Coulter look like a sweetie.
This is true, but he was much closer than Johnson, had much more experience and seniority, and has the added benefit of not being an obvious rabid lunatic.
I don’t see these questions as answerable beyond speculation.
I would imagine that marrying a diplomat makes the undercover part kind of hard. Having twins and suffering severe postpartum depression would also make it hard, and not serving abroad would also make it hard.
As an interesting note, there is a USA today article. Let’s pretend that Johnson is correct and that Plame took trips abroad in 2000, 2002, and 2003 (IIRC.)
This would be in contradiction to Wilson’s own statements.
“In The Politics of Truth, former ambassador Joseph Wilson writes that he and his future wife both returned from overseas assignments in June 1997. Neither spouse, a reading of the book indicates, was again stationed overseas. They appear to have remained in Washington, D.C., where they married and became parents of twins.”
(note also that Plame had the aforementioned severe postpartum depression going on here, so her capacity to act covertly may not have been at an optimum)
Anyway:
"the law against unmasking the identities of U.S. spies says a “covert agent” must have been on an overseas assignment “within the last five years.” The assignment also must be long-term, not a short trip or temporary post, two experts on the law say. "
“Unless she was really stationed abroad sometime after their marriage,” she wasn’t a covert agent protected by the law, says Bruce Sanford, an attorney who helped write the 1982 act that protects covert agents’ identities."
Since Sanford helped write the law, we can take his opinion seriously.
So, for the sake of argument, pretending that Johnson’s claims of Plame’s trips are confirmed (which I think is highly doubtful,) it still means nothing in terms of covert status under the identities protection act.
My pleasure.
Not as much as I do with morons who can’t actually read.
No. I agree. In fact, she majored in advertising.
I really don’t know about that. The CIA doesn’t list its training class alumni that I’m aware of. I do know that saying that “she took classes at other institutions later on” is not really putting the proper face on it, since she earned Masters from each institution. That’s a little bit more than “taking classes.” Her schooling ended in 1995. Between graduating Penn State and then she earned two additional Masters degrees. Between these she served in the US Embassy in Athens.
Two years after she graduated this last she came back to Langley and married Wilson.
I’m not really seeing a lot of room here for a major undercover spying career. Are you?
When she was recruited, I don’t know. DO you have the class list?
You mean like in a continuing ed sort of capacity? Working her way through Grad school shooting bad guys?
“I’m sorry. I can’t meet with my spy ring right now. I’m in class.”
I suppose anything is possible. I’m having a tough time envisioning her travelling the world, recruiting spies, wielding ak-47s while handling the rigors of graduate school.
I guess I imagine spying as a little more involved career choice than working at the Circle K.
Like I noticed hundreds of times before:
Time lines are a huge blind spot for extreme conservatives.
On top of finding that the quote on Wilson was used out of context in an effort to mislead, no matter how much our “superscyllious” member insists to the contrary, the allegations that neighbors knew her secret status remain BS.
Is there something about Ms Plame’s post-partum depression you find compellingly relevent? You’ve brought it up several times now. I am entirely willing to stipulate that Ms Plame is human, female, and has given birth. Pending evidence to the contrary, of course.
A total fucking nutjob.
You’re not supposed to tell anybody. Are you? Or, is it ok to just tell a couple of people?
How’s Cliff May?
Cliff May. He also writes this rather thoughtful article.
Novak only wrote that Wilson’s wife worked for the CIA. She wasn’t “outed” as being “Covert” until Corn wrote a piece about it a few days later and May makes the strong logical case that Wilson himself outed his wife!!!
http://www.nationalreview.com/may/may200507150827.asp
Ha!
It’s kind of a gotcha.
Sure. It’s evidence that she was at home, being domestic, and not going abroad on secret missions like Corn and Johnson allege. It was apparently serious enough that she required help, and it backs up the suggestion that she did not work undercover since 1997 when she got called back, married Wilson, got pregnant, had kids, suffered postpartum depression et al.
You have a source who writes for NewsMax? Heavens, why didn’t you say so! Certainly more reliable a source than that scoundrel Corn, who writes for the rabidly left moonbat scandal sheet The Nation. And since you’ve already referenced the Washington Times, you’ve covered two of the central pillars of non-biased reportage.
And he thinks he remembers hearing some stuff. Incontrovertible. We reel in disarray.
[Resisting laughter]
Where does it say that Cliff May is the Neighbor?
I don’t see that as being an allegation of Corn, and the connection to Johnson is of your own devising. Allow me to refresh your flagging memory:
I’m not sure what a tortured parsing of the word “undercover” might reveal. It does not, however, necessarily imply an overseas posting, true enough. Indeed, Mr Corn’s suggestion would lead me to the impression that she was too important and knowledgeable to risk on such an assignment.
You are welcome to whatever comfort you can find in that.