I know America is great in some ways. Freedom of religion is in our Constitution (as interpreted by the Supreme Court), but at the same time, our national motto is “In God We Trust,” and states are still allowed to outlaw everything from oral sex to selling liquor on Sunday. What with the influence of far-right religious zealots who want to enforce their religion on everyone through our government, and the pandering to these groups by our political candidates, I was wondering where I might want to move to get better treatment. Is America the best there is right now, or are there better options? (I suspect perhaps the Netherlands would be a good alternative, but have no first-hand knowledge nor any information on other countries’ laws regarding freedom of and from religion.)
I heard a rumor that there are some free-thinkers in Great Debates. Other’s aren’t exactly free, but hey, 2 cents is still a pretty good bargain.
Let’s head over there and check it out.
Denmark?
I was going to say Antarctica, but they actually have some of the most restrictive rules on what you can and can’t do.
In the US? San Francisco. We accepted Emperor Norton, hell we even have some monuments to him. You can also feel free to dress however the hell you want and have people ignore you.
My brother would vote for Amsterdam, but that’s just him…
Why move out of the US and hassle with a work visa? Move to Boulder, CO. While I was there (94 - 97), it was very liberal & free-thinking. Of course, that’s because it’s a college town. It is surrounded by one of the more rabidly conservative states in the union.
I’d say in your late teens and early 20’s - somewhere amongst all that hormonal imbalance. It’s downhill to suburban thinking from there.
Otherwise as said, a good University town.
I dunno, I went to university in Santa Cruz, California, which was definitely a university town. But you were only allowed to be a freethinker if you were a liberal freethinker. (Ah, Santa Cruz, the city that tried to outlaw hate.)
It might come as a surprize but Ireland is pretty progressive and protects most freedoms . The Netherlands would probably be the country that gives off the most progressive vibs . I’m not to sure of the actual laws but when you go there you can’t help but be impressed with the whole thing . They seem to be the most sensible and pragmatic people I have had the pleasure of meeting .
A friend recently was saying very nice things about Asheville, N.C., which surprised me (as well as apparently her very fundamentalist friend who recently relocated there.)
Uhhh… not true. I’ve lived in the Boulder area for about 10 years now, and although Boulder is VERY good at marketing itself as liberal and free-thinking, it’s tremendously conservative at heart. The contradictions are amazing. A local journalist wrote an article about just this subject in the last few weeks. He picked the newest silly idea going around - changing the wording in all city documents to refer to “Pet Guardians” instead of “Pet Owners” - as an example.
Boulder wants to appear to be a pet-friendly town, so they want “Pet Guardians.” Ok, great. Here’s the realities of having a dog in Boulder. In the entire town of 100,000+, there’s maybe 2 parks where you can let your dog off leash. There’s at least a few parks that the dog is not allowed, period. They police the parks very well, and you will get a ticket if you attempt to break the park laws. The main outdoor shopping area, the Pearl Street Pedestrian Mall, bans dogs outright. You can’t even have your well-behaved dog on leash while you stroll down the mall.
If you stop at a store (one NOT on the mall, mind you) and tie your dog up outside, you risk getting a ticket. A friend of mine once left her dogs in the back of her pickup, which was covered with a shell. She left the windows down so the dogs wouldn’t get too hot. Some yahoo approached the dogs while she was shopping. The dogs started to bark furiously. He ignored them, and stuck his hand IN HER TRUCK to “pet” the dogs. One snapped at him - did not bite, did not physically touch him at all. He called the police & animal control, and she had to quarantine the dog for 2+ weeks and prove to the city her dogs were not harmful. All because some guy decided to stick his hand into her truck. But… she’s a PET GUARDIAN!!!
Whoops… sorry to hijack this thread. This is but one example of Boulder’s wanting to appear to be liberal but in actuality being very conservative. There’s plenty of other examples involving gay people, cars vs. bikes, etc. etc. I wouldn’t suggest moving to Boulder if you want truly open minds and free thinkers.
AerynSun,
Interesting OP. I agree that it has become quite difficult to discuss many things in public in the US (at least in some places). You hit on one issue - there are some people who are very determined to make their way the “right” way. I happen to think that this is not limited to the “Religious Right”, but on the contrary, is just as strong on the “Liberal Left”, and in a few other places in between.
The US remains one of the best countries in the world for free thinkers, because you cannot be (by law) punished for thinking the wrong thoughts, and speaking the wrong words (as long as you do not threaten anyone, or advocate violence, etc.)
If you mean this country is too hung up pn certain things, I agree whole-heartedly. Drugs, Religion, Sex to name a few. But I think you are still allowed to have your opinions.
A few places in the world are less “hung up” about these things, like Bosda Di’Chi of Tricor mentioned, Denmak. But they may be more hung up about other things…
If you look at the US, I have to vote with Oldscratch - SF is the best. Whe have a bit of everything in this City, and we somehow get along.
Sili
And hey tradesillicon. With district elections coming up maybe some fellow thinkers of yours will get elected.
I still think the funniest thing about SF was the Republican party endorsing Willie Brown, the most villified man in California (by the GOP) for years, in the Mayorial election.
Oldscratch, I’m not sure that any of my fellow thinkers are running for anything, not that I keep informed about local politics. I just know it’s a good place to live, and I’ve met just about every type of thinker in SF. I have not had a problem getting along with anyone, and I can share my thinking freely around here.
(I’m not a Republican, if that’s what you mean) The bit with Willie Brown was hilarious. GOP picked him over a few others they perceived to be further to the left.(You mean there is a further left?)
Sili
Cambridge, Massachusetts, the home of Harvard and MIT. Often referred to as the People’s Republic of Cambridge, the only town in the state to have hired a full-time Peace Commissioner, and overall about as permissive as you’re going to get in this country, excepting Berkeley, perhaps. And it’s right across the river from Boston, so it’s possible to visit the real world as well. And the police don’t seem to mind the smell of marijuana in the air.
Most (north)western European countries (Germany, Holland, Scandanavia). There is a feeling of tolerance not normally possible in the U.S. Of course, every place has its advantages and disadvantages, but then again the OP wasn’t asking where heaven on earth might be.
I have been led to believe that many of these Northern European countries are considered freethinking because everyone, um, is pretty much the same. I had a Norwegian roommate once, and I got the impression from discussions with her that Norway’s population (at least in Oslo, where she’s from, and I think most Norwegians live) is composed almost completely of Northern European, white, Christians who all speak Norwegian. It’s pretty easy to be openminded when everyone else is just like you. And if Germany was so openminded, why is it so hard to become a German citizen for Turkish immigrants? And Yojimbo, I don’t want to knock your country, but didn’t Ireland just legalize divorce in the last couple years? I know that the huge majority of Irish people are Catholics and therefore not likely to be divorced anyway, but what about non-Catholic Irish peeps? I mean, my religion doesn’t forbid divorce. Of course, the point is moot now, but you get what I’m saying.
Dissenting opinions/corrections welcome. Thanks for not screaming at me too loudly. 
It isn’t. They just are required to give up their Turkish citizenship first, just like they would if they wanted to become U.S. citizens. The only major difference is that non-Germans’ children have not automatically been German citizens upon birth, but this is being changed. In fact, the citizenship laws have recently been loosened.
Otherwise, I do have the feeling that German society is more tolerant in general in the sense that it is less prude and moralizing than U.S. society.
And while there are a great many racists in Germany today, (and awful things happen especially in Germany’s backwaters), statistically and from my own experience, truly hateful racists make up a smaller proportion of the population than in other European countries and possibly even the U.S. Indeed, someone with one African parent is often considered to be half-African and half-German, while in the U.S. someone with one African great-grandparent is just “Black”.
And don’t forget the German campaing against scientology. Stupid as scientology is, that just isn’t a sign of a tolerant society.
I live in denver, but get to boulder enough to know about it. Boulder accepts all philosophies and political views, as long as they conform to the far left. They want to have a completely relativistic society, but the reality is that they are trying to force everyone there to conform to their ultra liberal views.
For example: there is no smoking allowed on boulder city limits. Cross dressers are can’t be fired, but businesses can’t make thier employees wear uniforms. You can have pets, but you can’t call yourself the owner. But smoking dope and smelling like petchuli oil is A-OK.
As long as you are ultra liberal, reject God, and are willing to have others tell you how to live you life, then boulder is for you.
Oh, yeah, and you have to be rich. Boulder has a zero growth policy meaning that there are no new buildings allowed. As a result population density is unbearable, housing costs are higher than San Fran, and because of the density, there are a billion rules enforced so that all of your neighbors who are just waiting for a cause to fight, don’t get offended or put out in any way by your behavior.
It’s a wonderful little republic.