Where's the debate with Muslims?

Great Debates
1

This is a thread about debates rather than a debate itself, so it may have to be moved, but…

All I hear during this and previous episodes of Islamist rage are intercontinental ballistic talking points. You get some Muslims justifying global violence on the grounds that someone insulted and attacked Islam while others try to wash their hands of it. Meanwhile you get Republicans blaming Democrats for causing the violence by “appeasing” the Muslims, and demanding the US do more to attack Islam because that’s guaranteed to intimidate them.

I want to see someone debate some radical Islamists face-to-face and at length. I want to see their reactions when someone confronts them on their violent predilections and the extreme disproportionality of their reactions.

Are there any sites where this kind of thing is taking place? If I had my way there would be an entire cable channel dedicated to debates of this nature.

2

Why would radical-extremist Islamist leaders be interested in debating with people of other faiths? Their strategy is to pump up their followers with ignorance-fueled resentment and paranoia, not to justify their positions by winning arguments against actual opponents.

There are plenty of interfaith debates and discussions sponsored by various ecumenical and academic organizations, but that’s exactly the sort of thing Salafist Islamic-fundamentalists want no part of.

3

Does this mean that you have a rational points to make to those bloodthirsty fanatics so they understand finer points of Iraq invasion or expansion of Jewish settlements?

4

Or the reasons why women shouldn’t be stoned to death for having been raped? I’m sure they’ll be extremely interested in what the outside world thinks of that little cultural quirk.

5

They support it, they encourage it, they live by it, so I think they’re already aware of it. I expect that their reaction would be to smile with some satisfaction. The fact that you’re outraged by it means they’ve succeeded.

6

I’d be happy to debate 'em if they wuz here, but they ain’t.

7

For a second there I thought you wanted to debate those guys who were lynching AA’s not so long ago.

Kinda same type of dudes who get offended if AA eats in their favourite restaurant or, God forbid, want to go to the same school.

But, let’s pretend that never happened :o

8

I doubt that a debate with a fanatic of any ilk is that useful. Being that the whole concept, you know, of listening to, understanding, and responding to someone else’s point of view, that’s not what they do.

Any kind of fanatic.

9

But I get the impression that Muslims do like to debate, or at least to get their political point across. Cars driven by Muslims often have bumper stickers promoting some Islamic debate point (they’re always green).

And the protests themselves are a form of debating tactics, and individual protesters will make their point when journalists stick a mic in their face. But there are counterpoints to be made and you’d think someone would be making an effort to get these back to them in this age of global communication.

Furthermore, there are two sides to the two sides. Anti-Muslim ranters in this country are also “talking past” their targets. Someone needs to bloody well throw a few of them together in a room somewhere, but that’s not necessary since we have satellite technology. Aren’t there any Muslims out there who would like to give that Pastor Terry Jones guy a piece of their mind?

If no such communication is taking place, then I guess I’m just decrying the lack of it. It’s kind of a big deal given what a global-scale dispute is taking place.

10

Excellent!

Now that we resolved this how about establishing a criteria on what constitutes a fanatic.

The question that will help in starting a debate on this issue, would you consider W. Bush to be fanatic?

11

Try debating a young Earth creationist (Christian) first as a warm-up. That’ll give you the sour taste of what it means to debate religious reactionaries.

12

To be honest, I just think it would be entertaining. :wink:

You’d just think that someone in the media would have made an effort to find someone of that viewpoint who loves to talk and argue and is willing to play ball.

If there have been unsuccessful attempts at getting something like this together I’d like to hear about that too.

13

There was this scene in the Sasha Baron Cohen movie Bruno where he, allegedly, talks to a terrorist. It ended with them running for their lives. I imagine that’s how a real debate would go down

14

Debating and getting one’s point across are two different things. Obviously the folks who are currently storming embassing in northern Africa want to get a point across. They’re certain that they’re correct about who the Prophet Mohammed was and to them that entails the fact that no criticism of the Prophet can ever be permitted.

That’s very different from a debate. For a debate to occur, both participants must acknowledge that there’s some common ground of intellect that they agree on, so that they can make statements building on that common ground by which they try to convince each other. Western thought accepts such a premise and the concept of debate or dialogue existed both among the ancient Greeks and Romans and in early Christian apologetics such as Dialogue with the Jew Trypho and Octavius of Minutus Felix. I know of no comparable writings in debate format from early in the history of Islam. They may exist; I’m not an expert in this area, but I’ve never seen any such thing. Islamic doctrine all but rules out the idea that a Muslim and a non-Muslim can find common ground on religious issues from which to start building towards a consensus.

Debates between Muslims and non-Muslims on religious issues have been rare. I’ve been on message boards where I’ve seen a few, but the divide between their thought lines and ours is so great that it’s hard for either side to make head or tail out of what the other says.

15

I don’t think they’re allowed to debate it on any level. And logging onto an American site without sending a virus is probably a stoning too, so.

16

There are plenty of YouTube videos of these debates happening on Arab TV networks. You just have to look.

17

Why Are Muslims So Angry?

18

meh

There are some true things in that piece. There are also a lot of not so true things, hyperbole, gross generalizations, and the same sort of “one size fits all” claims that have been made by both the Muslim zealots promoting the riots and some of their critics.

It is no more reasonable to claim that all the problems are direct responses to “the West” than to claim that all the problems are simply the result of “Islam.”

19

I think a rational person would agree that the “problems” are somewhere on the sliding scale of these two major dimensions.

How would one go about determining their true cause-effect trajectory?

I’ll give you one example of my direct experience from Bosnia how these two dimensions (external destructive factor and Islam) come to correlate.

Prior to the war waged by Serbia on Bosnia & Herzegovina (BH) supported by Serbs who lived in Croatia and BH, Islam was just a tradition for which people did not have any better alternative nor they needed any. It was mostly a home-based activity with mosques visited by old people. People of all types in BH were strongly looking to Western Europe, especially Austria And Germany as ideals of living. It was a country with strong citizen-based culture in which I grew up and took for granted.

Then the war happened where it was made clear that regardless of your degree of Islam connection you stood a really good chance to be killed. People realized that the only thing that was important to your enemy is that you were born like one. I dont need to go over horrific experiences in my hometown; suffice to say one of the most lasting impact on individuals was an eternal stress of being targeted b/c you were born Muslim. I’ll admit it was a very difficult thing to comprehend.

Now, I came to Canada where I think I stand the least chance of not being killed b/c I’m Muslim (I’ll admit it helps to be white, blond haired and green eyed).

But many people stayed and in the environment where they are right now, even 20 years later, due to unresolved structural problems of BH society (and Balkans in general) people who are often unemployed and with no prospects need to make life meaningful. One of the way to deal with reality is, unfortunately, religion. And that religion in a certain parts of BH happen to be Islam so thats what people turn to. Just like in other parts they turn to Catholicism or Orthodox Christianity.

What I came to realize is that they are same people divided by illusion. But when reality is so bad, an illusion offers piece of mind.

Now take Egypt or any other country down there that was beaten into this illusion (of religion) over a prolonged period of time. In fact, take into account that these societies never knew how it is to live without some external force meddling and creating conditions in which society lives. Islam was always there and that’s what people turn to.

Considering how Catholics in BH fared, I could go and make a claim that if any of those countries was of some Christian flavour, they would not be in dire straits that they are now. If Palestinians were 90% Christians there would not be Israel-Palestine conflict. But that’s probably a different thread.

Now, let’s talk about external influence. And it’s very simple. As I asked in another thread, what has US ever done at an official level that one can take a look at and say “This action was done as a clear and direct intervention to make these societies better in terms of democracy and freedom”.

I cannot recall a SINGLE one. Can you?

Now, there’s your answer.

20

The old tu quoque argument. Apologists for Islam never tire of it, do they?

If western civilization burned witches 400 years ago (and they did) then Islamist barbarity in the 21st century is safely immune from criticism. Gentlemen, choose your stones. This whore brought the rape on herself by showing her ankles!

If some non-Muslim states like Jamaica and Uganda persecute homosexuals (and they do) we cannot say a word about the fact that seven Muslim countries have the death penalty for gays, a couple of dozen have punishments ranging from lashing to huge prison terms. and that not a single one recognizes gay relationships or protects the rights of its LGBT citizens. As long as you can pont to a single non-Muslim state that is homophobic, we may not say a word against the homophobia that predominates among Muslims, including Muslim immigrants to western countries.

In another thread, I have seriously had the fact that William Tyndale was executed in friggin’ 1536 for translating the Bible into English quoted to me as another form of apologism for Islamist barbarity in the 21st century!

It would be funny if it were not so sad.