Where's the evidence *against* evolution?

Keep in mind that the mammalian / avian heart did not evolve from two to three to four chambers in a vacuum. The circulatory system is intimately linked to the respiratory system. The biggest influence on the change from a two-chambered fish heart to a three-chambered amphibian heart was most likely the change in circulatory patterns associated with the transition from gills to lungs. Then, from a three-chambered heart, a four-chambered heart is not that big a step (crocodiles, for example, have an imperfectly-formed four-chambered heart, which serves as a nice transition between the reptilian three-chambered version and the avian four-chambered version).

Also, recent evidence suggests that the same gene controls the development of the heart and limbs, which again would coincide with a change in heart structure when proto-amphibians took to walking on land. Thus, it appears that only a small genetic change is necessary to account for a significant anatomical / physiological change.

My point here (and you were probably thinking I didn’t have one!) is that even complex structures like the heart can be explained via existing evolutionary processes (albeit, better than I have done here).

> This may be simplistic, but I’ve heard of many people being born with genetic defects, and none with genetic enhancements.

I take it you haven’t seen X-Men. That chick that could control the weather was pretty cool, & that other dude had a pretty useful tongue.

I don’t think that’s the case- its very easy for chromosomal rearrangements to take place, even in short-term breeding experiments. How can prezygotic isolation take hold if only sex is providing the variations?

-Ben

Mauve Dog, and Ben:
I confess I was knocking off the type of finding that would be counter evidence against evolution, IMO. (Once again, I don’t expect such a finding to occur). I really didn’t think the idea would get such close scrutiny. According to Watson’s “Molecular Biology of the Gene” and Lewin’s “Genes V”, the rates of mutation are known for E.coli but only very unreliably so for eukaryotes. So I was wrong about that, and I can’t defend the experiment as doable.

As to changes in the fossil record being proportional to changes in the genome, how could they not be? (Remember, I was careful to exclude silent and lethal mutations). Even changes in gene regulation have to be coded somehow, ultimately, in the genome if the change is to be heritable, right? In another sense, though, I think you guys are right and this is just a semantic error on my part: when I think of “great change” in phenotype, I mean that changes are occuring rapidly, not that the change is a radical one. If our metric for phenotypic change somehow included a detailed consideration of what the specific change was, then I agree a “small” genotype change could result in a “large” phenotype change and the two would not be proportional in a definable way. But how could you define a generally applicable metric of phenotypic change? Is a longer humerus a bigger or a smaller change than a larger eyesocket? But this is my fault; I should have been more specific and said “rate of change”. So what I want to assert is that rates of phenotypic change should be reflected in rates of genetic change.

On another note, I do have to object to the idea that evolution is unassailable. We observe many different closely related forms in the fossil record that form a rough continuum (for some things more rough than others). We observe great sequence homologies that correlate strongly with the fossil record. We observe the principles of genetics and especially the genetics of poulations. We observe changes taking place in rapidly-reproducing organisms in the laboratory. We observe that organisms are adapted to their environments. THOSE are the facts.

Add it all up and evolution emerges as the most reasonable explanation for those facts (indeed, the only reasonable explanation yet proposed). I will go farther and say that reasoning from the observations dictates that it almost certainly MUST be true. This explanation is so powerful and so consistent with all the facts that it is established as well as any interpretive explanation in science, from Maxwell’s equations to continental drift. But it is not a fact in the same sense as the things in the last paragraph. It is an interpretation of all the evidence, it is not evidence in and of itself.

This makes it necessary that evolution be a falsifiable theory. There has to be some experiment we could do that could, in principle, prove evolution wrong. I tried to construct such an experiment that may not have been done already, which is what I thought the OP was asking for, but apparently I didn’t do a very good job. Oh well, the theory is so well established I don’t think it’s important at this point, anyway.

[On reading this over before posting I realize I may need to define my terms to avoid confusion again. If you define “evolution” as any change in gene frequency occuring in a population, then it IS a simple fact, as mentioned above when I said we observe changes in rapidly-reproducing organisms in the lab. But I am thinking of “evolution” here as the more interesting phenomenon of the accumulation of traits to produce new species, which as far as I know has not been observed directly.]

Hmmm… Where to start… The facts (as in ‘THOSE are the facts’) that you presented are, to put it bluntly, synonymous with ‘evolution.’ While your definition may differ, the concept of evolution is, in its simplest terms, descent with modification (this is the phrase used by Darwin in The Origin of Species - he did not actually use the word ‘evolution’ to describe this process). THIS is an observable fact, whether we are talking about rapidly-reproducing bacteria or blue whales or glyptodonts.
This is as much a fact as gravity, electro-magnetism, or ‘continental drift’ (more properly known as ‘plate techtonics’).

Since evolution, in its basic sense, is not a theory, but a fact, it is no more falsifiable than the observation that the sun rises in the East. The mechanisms of evolution, however, are a different matter. You cannot reasonably argue whether organisms change: they do. You can argue about how or why (by ‘why’, I do not mean the philosophical reasons!) they change.

If one truly wishes to ‘put the nail in the coffin’ of evolution, then one must show that populations of organisms are unchanging. It’s as simple as that :slight_smile:

I prefer to call what you define as ‘evolution’ speciation.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by APB9999 *
**Mauve Dog, and Ben:
I Watson’s “Molecular Biology of the Gene”

[QUOTE]
**

Is this the same book as “Recombinant DNA- A Short Course”? (ie essentially the same text, but in a different edition with a different title?)

**

Because your genes encode more than the structure of your skeleton. Strong selectional pressure for feathers and flight will turn reptiles into birds faster than mutations relevant to defense against parasites will. And although you excluded neutral mutations, remember that neutral mutations are a big part of the differences you see between, say, two hydrolases.

-Ben

I admit that evolution is the only theory to fit the facts. I just was stating that if I were to pick something that I have difficulty explaining, it would be the heart. I’ve read the limbs off patterning papers. To say that this is molecular proof that walking on land is tied to heart development is faulty logic. Changes in one thing, even if tied to the same gene, do not necessarily lead to changes in another – remember all the systems are evolving and changing with each other. A change like water->land transition requires millions of years of selective advantage, not just tweaking one gene. Limbs and hearts are patterned by thousands of genes, and one could expect changes in most of them for such a huge transition.

I just think, that if to pick one system to mess with, the heart would be the hardest. Saying that crocodiles have a good intermediate heart is again faulty. If I remember the current phylogeny correctly, the path starting from common precursor through reptile into crocodile is far different from the path starting from common precursor to mammal. The 3->4 chamber thing for mammals would have had to occur before the reptile/mammal branching (for mammals at least). Also, the way these data were presented gives a flawed picture – crocodilian hearts are not “imperfect.” Their hearts are suprememly evolved for the niche they live in (just like crocodiles). They would do much worse with a 4 chambered heart (or presumably they would have evolved it, just like birds).

Okay, finished with that debate.

Next, the mutation rate debate is bunk. Here’s how I see it: (many of these have been said, but I’ll list my hangups here)

  1. Mutation rate is not constant. Even a small change in mutation rate can cause large evolutionary consequences. Things as far ranging from sunspots to retroviruses to diet to natural radioactivity around (just spouting off ideas here) can lead to all types of changes.

  2. We cannot accurately estimate a mutation rate from a fossil record. Quick evolution (over 10s-100s of generations, like Darwin’s finches) would most probably not be represented as well as long stable periods. Punctuated equilibrium.

  3. Bacteria are really no measure whatsoever for this. Bacteria do tend to mutate relatively regularly in a vial in the shaker, but also change their mutation rate at a whole host of things, like starvation. No evidence yet that this can happen in higher organisms, but who knows? For instance, cancer cells are hypermutable and tandemly amplify needed genes to give themselves higher survival rates (double minutes).

  4. A mutation rate debate centers on the fact that evolution is a linear thing. Not necessarily so – a path can be tried, and abandoned. Also, some shortcuts can probably be found – two things change at once to give synergy. Thus, a fossil record can be misleading temporally (sp.?). Take for instance a culture of mixed mutagenized yeast. If subjected to a limiting environment, they will compete. The fittest yeast (with maybe more metabolism advantageous mutations) will win. Repeat experiment, adding different selections as you go along. What do you end up with? Well, it ain’t superyeast – wild type yeast will rapidly outcompete these multiply selected yeast in the same trials.

Also, molecularly, evolution depends on mutation, in any form. Sex can only give variability to increase the chances that a given mutation will be presented in an advantageous way. It is like playing poker with half a deck of cards – you can only get so many winning hands by just shuffling the deck(sex) and dealing 5. Adding more cards (mutation) will necessarily give you more winning hands.

Oops. I’m talking to a structural biologist. I’m completly out of my league. I don’t even know what prezygotic isolation is (a gamete with no social life?).
But, I was attempting to respond to the (I think) inordanite focus on mutation in this thread, and the creationist who argue that mutation could not account for the Glorious Tapesty that is Life, and completely ignore sex, natural selection and enviorment as siginifigent factors in differentiation of species.

**
Muhahahahaha…

**

Actually, I think I screwed up. Prezygotic isolation is when animals can’t make zygotes, because (for example) they have mechanically incompatible genitalia. I was referring to situations like horses and mules, in which chromosomal rearrangements make it impossible for fertile offspring to form.

I think you’re right. If you look at CARM’s website, they argue that it’s silly for fish to come out of water and evolve into amphibians, and then for mammals to go back into the water and become cetaceans. Anyone with half a brain realizes that environmental conditions changed enormously in the intervening time, but…

-Ben

Even if we were able to determine the rate of mutations it wouldn’t be a very good argument for evolution in higher species.

Bacteria and simple celled organisms are wonderful to observe for mutations because they have simple (relatively speaking) mapped genomes. They also have very few redundant genes and little “junk DNA”. Thus most point mutations will alter phenotype.

However, this doesn’t work in humans and other higher animals. We have complex DNA with many redundancies so that mutations won’t cause serious genetic disease or change in phenotype. Most of our genes don’t encode anything, they turn on, off, or are spacers (in the simplest of terms) for the genes that DO something. One of the better explanations of DNA and the ramifications of the Human Genome Project was in Newsweek. It said, to paraphrase, in essence the human genome is like a 1000 page book in which the first 950 pages of the book are instructions on how to use the last 50 pages.

A simple point mutation in humans is most likely, not going to do anything. To evolve, a bunch of hoops need to be jumped through. That isn’t to say that humans didn’t evolve, or that they aren’t capable of it. What that means is that it would take a REALLY long time for a human to evolve from a single celled creature. Are billions of years long enough? I don’t know. I do know that there would have to be a whole lot of simultaneous mutations for that to happen.

Take the dolphin, for example. It’s a mammal. It would have had to evolve sleek skin, larger lungs, echolocation, flippers, etc. nearly simultaneously. Is this possible? Is this probable? Is an otter just a dolphin in the making?

Evolution happens. There’s no question about that, but I don’t know that I believe that it could happen and design something as beautiful as the human body.

There’s no watch without a watchmaker.

(BTW Sickle cell anemia is a useful mutation. It protects the carrier from malaria. This is why is exclusive to blacks of African descent.)

MauveDog:

You might start by reading my post. When, exactly, have you seen descent with modification in a blue whale? Just how old are you? What you will have seen are the things I mentioned, most obviously in this example the changes in the fossil record. You look at this data (and the rest) and DEDUCE that descent with modification takes place. And I agree with you, but I am deducing too. Just as I have not seen continental drift, either, but can deduce it from facts I can see directly. The same for the theories of electromagnetism and gravitation. None of these are facts, they are interpretations of observations. That’s why they can and do change with time as new evidence comes forward: new facts. Neither plate tectonics (thank you, I am familiar with the term; I can even spell it correctly) nor evolution (in the broad sense) is directly observable, given human life spans. They are interpretations of evidence that IS directly observable. And to be valid scientific theories, therefore, they are not somehow privileged from being falsifiable; they must be falsifiable and they are, even if it is hard to think of new experiments at this point.

It has become common to elevate evolution to “simple fact”, largely, I think, because creationists are so fond of making their silly “just a theory” argument. And I can sympathize. But both positions are just too facile for the more complicated intellectual inspiration that evolution represents.

Ben:
It’s “Molecular Biology of the Gene” by Watson, Hopkins, Roberts, Steitz, and Weiner; The Benjamin/Cummings Publishing Company, Inc., Menlo Park, CA. I have the 4th edition, but there are newer ones. It is in two volumes; the passage on mutation rates is restricted to misincorporations and is in chapter 12 (page 340 in the 4th ed.). The treatment in Lewin is a little better, actually, although MBotG has a really great last chapter on molecular origins of life, and is worth looking at just for that.

I’m no Einstein, so I am not going to put forth any arguements for or against evolution… but what I have always wanted to know is…

They say Human Beings “appeared” on earth around 50,000 years ago. So what was roaming around the earth 60,000 years ago that was soon-to-evolve-into a human being? When did we “become” Human Beings?

Ben:

Yeah, you’re right. Fossil changes must be proportional to changes in the genome, but that will be a subset of the total changes in the genome so the converse won’t be true.

Well, my sources say that homo sapiens sapiens (us) appeared around 120,000 years ago.

Around the early portion of our era there was also homo sapiens neanderthalensis. Before that homo sapiens. Before that homo erectus. Before that … well, see Hominid Species.

Of course, there’s a lot of overlap between these hominids.

Two words: Artificial Selection. Assuming you have read The Origin of Species, you should know that what Darwin argued for was simply a ‘natural’ equivalent of what Man has been doing with domesticated animals all along - selecting for specific traits. If this isn’t a clear-cut case of observable descent with modification, I don’t know what is. Just because we may be guiding it in breeding programs doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen without us. There is no need to 'deduce anything of the sort. It happens.

Plate tectonics is an observable fact, not a deduction. That gravity exists is an observable fact, not a deduction. The theory of gravitation deals with how it manifests and operates, not whether or not it exists.

Not true. It has been OBSERVED that the continents are moving at about the same rate one’s fingernails grow - on the order of about 1cm / year. And good for you that you can spell ‘tectonics’ correctly :slight_smile:

And in all cases, the theories regarding the mechanisms of these processes are testable and falsifiable. The reason it is so difficult to falsify evolution is because it isn’t a theory. You can toss natural selection, the fossil record, and everything we know about genetics into the dumpster, but that still wouldn’t change the observable fact that organisms change, and are changing within our own lifespans.

Citations, please, where selective breeding has produced a new species within a single human life span.

Also, how is the movement of the continents directly observed? Cite please. [I am not a geologist, so I am willing to accept that there may be some direct way of observing continental drift, but I’d like to hear more.]

For the rates of motion, I did some searches, and was not able to come up with the actual experiments used, but I did find this at this site:

I’m not a geologist either, so unfortunately I don’t have any geology texts which might actually say how (probably involving bouncing signals off of satellites or some such) we measure the rates today. But, it seems pretty clear to me anyway that we do know continents are moving!

As to the observed instances of speciation, I direct you to the talk.origins FAQ which covers this topic.
I would also like to point out that, as per my previous definitions, evolution is not synonymous with speciation. Speciation occurs because of evolution, and is an evolutionary process, but not all evolutionary processes produce new species.

Again, the confusion in this discussion goes back to what is and is not evolution, and what are or are not mechanisms of evolution. My contention, going way back to the OP, is that evolution cannot be falsified, any more than gravity can be falsified. The mechanisms of evolution, and, indeed, gravity, can be falsified. This is where theory separates from fact. Special Creation is the only current alternative (and, admittedly, it is a wholly unsatisfactory one) to evolution (and by ‘special creation’, I do not mean ‘Creationism’ - I mean the idea that each new species is uniquely created, which is different from the idea that God may have set everything into motion; it implies a constant stirring of the pot, so to speak) because Special Creation does away with the idea that organisms change at all.

Special creation is irrelevant here, I think, since we both reject it.

The site you link to is pretty good! Some of the examples they give are ambiguous, and some seem not to meet the definitions of speciation they give themselves, but most are pretty clear and legitimate examples of speciation. I concede.

when I try to explain to my mother evolution she always says that if it was true all the apes would have evolved and why are there still apes alive and not all evolved. What do I say to her?

You say, “Jeez, Mom, don’t you ever read the Straight Dope Mailbag?”

And then you show her this:

http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mevolution.html

Which answers the question: If man is descended from monkeys and apes, why do we still have monkeys and apes?