Where's the evidence *against* evolution?

1. Something from nothing?
The “Big Bang”, the most widely accepted theory of the beginning of the universe, states that everything developed from a small dense cloud of subatomic particles and radiation which exploded, forming hydrogen (and some helium) gas. Where did this energy/matter come from? How reasonable is it to assume it came into being from nothing? And even if it did come into being, what would cause it to explode? We know from common experience that explosions are destructive and lead to disorder.How reasonable is it to assume that a “big bang” explosion produced the opposite effect - increasing “information”, order and the formation of useful structures, such as stars andplanets, and eventually people?
2. Physical laws an accident?
We know the universe is governed by several fundamental physical laws, such as electromagnetic forces, gravity, conservation of mass and energy, etc. The activities of our universe depend upon these principles like a computer program depends upon the existenceof computer hardware with an instruction set. How reasonable is it to say that these great controlling principles developed by accident?
3. Order from disorder?
The Second Law of Thermodynamics may be the most verified law of science. It states that systems become more disordered over time, unless energy is supplied and directed to create order. Evolutionists says that the opposite has taken place - that order increased over time, without any directed energy. How can this be?
ASIDE: Evolutionists commonly object that the Second Law applies to closed, or isolated systems, and that the Earth is certainly not a closed system (it gets lots of raw energy from the Sun, for example). However, all systems, whether open or closed, tend to deteriorate. For example, living organisms are open systems but they all decay and die. Also, theuniverse in total is a closed system. To say that the chaos of the big bang has transformed itself into the human brain with its 120 trillion connections is a clear violation of the SecondLaw.
We should also point out that the availability of raw energy to a system is a necessary but far from sufficient condition for a local decrease in entropy to occur. Certainly theapplication of a blow torch to bicycle parts will not result in a bicycle being assembled - only the careful application of directed energy will, such as from the hands of a person following a plan. The presence of energy from the Sun does NOT solve the evolutionist’sproblem of how increasing order could occur on the Earth, contrary to the Second Law.

4. Information from Randomness?

Information theory states that “information” never arises out of randomness or chance events. Our human experience verifies this every day. How can the origin of the tremendousincrease in information from simple organisms up to man be accounted for? Information is always introduced from the outside. It is impossible for natural processes to produce theirown actual information, or meaning, which is what evolutionists claim has happened. Random typing might produce the string “dog”, but it only means something to an intelligent observer who has applied a definition to this sequence of letters. The generation of information always requires intelligence, yet evolution claims that no intelligence was involved in the ultimate formation of a human being whose many systems contain vast amounts of information.
5. Life from dead chemicals?
Evolutionists claim that life formed from non-life (dead chemicals), so-called “abiogenesis”, even though it is a biological law (“biogenesis”) that life only comes from life. The probability of the simplest imaginable replicating system forming by itself from non-living chemicals has been calculated to be so very small as to be essentially zero - much less than one chance in the number of electron-sized particles that could fit in the entire visible universe! Given these odds, is it reasonable to believe that life formed itself?
6. Complex DNA and RNA by chance?
The continued existence (the reproduction) of a cell requires both DNA (the “plan”) and RNA (the “copy mechanism”), both of which are tremendously complex. How reasonable is it to believe that these two co-dependent necessities came into existence by chance at exactly the same time?
7. Life is complex.
We know and appreciate the tremendous amount of intelligent design and planning that went into landing a man on the moon. Yet the complexity of this task pales in comparison to the complexity of even the simplest life form. How reasonable is it to believe that purely natural processes, with no designer, no intelligence, and no plan, produced a human being.
8. Where are the transitional fossils?
If evolution has taken place our museums should be overflowing with the skeletons of countless transitional forms. Yet after over one hundred years of intense searching only asmall number of transitional candidates are touted as proof of evolution. If evolution has really taken place, where are the transitional forms? And why does the fossil record actuallyshow all species first appearing fully formed, with most nearly identical to current instances of the species?
ASIDE: Most of the examples touted by evolutionists concentrate on just one feature of the anatomy, like a particular bone or the skull. A true transitional fossil should be intermediatein many if not all aspects. The next time someone shows you how this bone changed over time, ask them about the rest of the creature too!
Many evolutionists still like to believe in the “scarcity” of the fossil record. Yet simple statistics will show that given you have found a number of fossil instances of a creature, thechances that you have missed every one of its imagined predecessors is very small. Consider the trilobites for example. These fossils are so common you can buy one for under $20, yet no fossils of a predecessor have been found!
9. Could an intermediate even survive?

Evolution requires the transition from one kind to another to be gradual. And don’t forget that “natural selection” is supposed to retain those individuals which have developed an advantage of some sort. How could an animal intermediate between one kind and another even survive (and why would it ever be selected for), when it would not be well-suited toeither its old environment or its new environment? Can you even imagine a possible sequence of small changes which takes a creature from one kind to another, all the while keeping it not only alive, but improved?
ASIDE: Certainly a “light-sensitive spot” is better than no vision at all. But why would such a spot even develop? (evolutionists like to take this for granted). And even if it did develop, to believe that mutations of such a spot eventually brought about the tremendous complexities of the human eye strains all common sense and experience.

10. Reproduction without reproduction?
A main tenet of evolution is the idea that things develop by an (unguided) series of small changes, caused by mutations, which are “selected” for, keeping the “better” changes" over a very long period of time. How could the ability to reproduce evolve, without the ability to reproduce? Can you even imagine a theoretical scenario which would allow this tohappen? And why would evolution produce two sexes, many times over? Asexual reproduction would seem to be more likely and efficient!
ASIDE: To relegate the question of reproduction to “abiogenesis” does NOT address the problem. To assume existing, reproducing life for the principles of evolution to work on is aHUGE assumption which is seldom focused on in popular discussions.

11. Plants without photosynthesis?
The process of photosynthesis in plants is very complex. How could the first plant survive unless it already possessed this remarkable capability?
12. How do you explain symbiotic relationships?
There are many examples of plants and animals which have a “symbiotic” relationship (they need each other to survive). How can evolution explain this?
13.It’s no good unless it’s complete.
We know from everyday experience that an item is not generally useful until it is complete, whether it be a car, a cake, or a computer program. Why would natural selection start to make an eye, or an ear, or a wing (or anything else) when this item would not benefit the animal until it was completed?
ASIDE: Note that even a “light-sensitive spot” or the simplest version of any feature is far from a “one-jump” change that is trivial to produce.

14. Explain metamorphosis!
How can evolution explain the metamorphosis of the butterfly? Once the caterpillar evolves into the “mass of jelly” (out of which the butterfly comes), wouldn’t it appear to be “stuck”?
15. It should be easy to show evolution.
If evolution is the grand mechanism that has produced all natural things from a simple gas, surely this mechanism must be easily seen. It should be possible to prove its existence in a matter of weeks or days, if not hours. Yet scientists have been bombarding countless generations of fruit flies with radiation for several decades in order to show evolution in action and still have only produced … more (deformed) fruit flies. How reasonable is it to believe that evolution is a fact when even the simplest of experiments has not been able to document it?
ASIDE: The artificial creation of a new species is far too small of a change to prove that true “macro-evolution” is possible. A higher-order change, where the information contentof the organism has been increased should be showable and is not. Developing a new species changes the existing information, but does not add new information, such as would be needed for a new organ, for example.
16. Complex things require intelligent design folks!
People are intelligent. If a team of engineers were to one day design a robot which could cross all types of terrain, could dig large holes, could carry several times its weight, found its own energy sources, could make more robots like itself, and was only 1/8 of an inch tall, we would marvel at this achievement. All of our life’s experiences lead us to know that such a robot could never come about by accident, or assemble itself by chance, even if all of the parts were available laying next to each other. And we are certain beyond doubt that a canister of hydrogen gas, not matter how long we left it there or what type of raw energy we might apply to it, would never result in such a robot being produced. But we already have such a “robot” - it is called an “ant”, and we squash them because they are “nothing” compared to people. And God made them, and he made us. Can there be any other explanation?

Good heavens, poor David is going to have an aneurysm.

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What about aptamers?

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What about RNA world?

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What about natural selection?

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Why does an organism have to evolve all at once, rather than one feature at a time?

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What about ribozymes?

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What about genetic load?
Well, looks like Muslim fundamentalists can regurgitate the same old same old just as well as Christian ones can. After all, if you had actually studied evolutionary biology, you wouldn’t have asked most of those questions.

Here’s a question for you: why did Allah see fit to create organisms which suffer from segregational load?

-Ben (still waiting for a creationist who knows what segregational load is…)

Dawkins has covered all of these questions many times in great detail in his books. Check out The Blind Watchmaker, Climbing Mount Improbable, et al. if you have a sincere interest in finding the answers to your questions.

Paul Yeah

The sweetest voice mail message you can ever hear is: “Ignore my last message. I took care of it”. - George Costanza

Well, Raven255, I suppose I should be happy that a creationist finally showed up, even if you only regurgitated the same tired, previously debunked tripe. But I’ll try and pretend you are actually interested in a meaningful dialogue instead of parroting someone else’s misinformed ideas. Let’s take them one by one, shall we?

Hopefully, you realize that cosmology is separate from biology, so the Big Bang theory has nothing whatsoever to do with evolution. You can research refutations of the cosmological “Intelligent Design” argument here. But I must point out that while you seem to have a problem with the universe lacking a creator, you accept the appearance of a creator without requiring a predecessor.

Again, this doesn’t have anything to do with evolution, but since evolution is so well documented, I can understand why you choose to attack a different scientific theory.

This argument is so completely filled with fallacies, I hesitate to address them all. Kind of like playing basketball with a retarded kid and calling an infraction for double dribble - you just have to let some stuff slide.

However, I suggest you read this article, or the excellent book A Brief History of Time, by Stephen Hawking. I’ll summarize a few of the high points to help further your education:

[ul]
[li]Without knowing all the possible combinations of the physical laws that would result in a stable universe, this question is meaningless.[/li][li]Even if only one possible combination would work, we wouldn’t be here to ask the question if it were otherwise.[/li][li]Assuming a creator did design the universe for life, I would have to conclude his ultimate goal was beetles, not humans.[/li][/ul]

Ah… the tried and true 2nd law argument. This one has been thoroughly refuted many times, yet creationists refuse to understand it. At least you do have one thing right – thermogoddamnics does apply to open systems. It just makes the math more difficult.

I’ll try and avoid the intricate calculus and appeal to simple logic (ha!) You seem to think that entropy in a system cannot decrease naturally, yet there are many examples of just such an occurence right before your eyes. Water freezes into ice, diamonds form naturally, seeds grow into flowers, infants become adults (sometimes). All without a guiding intelligence or a breakdown of the 2nd law.

You are conveniently forgetting the role that natural selection plays in the evolutionary process. And the bit about requiring an intelligent observer is just silly. Try reading this article about Evolution and Chance

You correctly identified this as abiogenesis, which is separate from evolution. But there is no “biological law” prohibiting it, nor are the odds necessarily long against it. These articles about The Probability of Abiogenesis and Abiogenesis Calculations should clear up your confusion. If you have problems comprehending it, resubmit this point and I will attempt to redirect.

Read this about RNA sequences. Current theories do not require your scenario.

Wow. Why didn’t I realize this? How could I have been so wrong?

Of course life is complex. So is non-life. Complexity is in the eye of the beholder. Have you ever taken a course in Quantum Mechanics ?

Every fossil is a transitional fossil, as no species exist in a vacuum. But if you are interested in transitions between common classifications, try the Transitional Vertebrate Fossils FAQ and the Evidence for Human Evolution.

As every animal that has ever existed is an intermediate between its evolutionary predecessor and descendant, I will have to go with the preponderance of the evidence and answer – YES!

Read about the evolution of sex, then ask me some follow-up questions, as I seem to have perfected sex. Well, at least I practice a lot.

Read a basic biology lecture on the evolution of plants. Plants evolved from single-celled organisms that were photosynthetic.

Symbiosis is easily accommodated in evolutionary theory. Separate organisms gradually evolve until they come to depend upon one another. Obviously if you don’t understand evolution, how could you understand symbiosis?

Even your own examples refute your logic. An incomplete cake is still very useful to a hungry man. The ancestor to the modern car was invented first. Maybe you’ve heard of the wheel? It was (and is) very useful.

It is easy to take a God-of-the-gaps approach and proclaim any unanswered questions as the work of an almighty deity. Though it may make your life simpler to do so, this is unsatisfactory to scientists, most of who need grant monies to continue doing research. In keeping with the spirit of this response, I offer this theory of metamorphosis evolution. It basically supposes that metamorphosis is just the result of some insects being born early.

It is very easy to see evolution if you are willing to open your eyes. In fact, you likely are willing to accept the evolution of antibiotic resistance in bacteria, or pesticide resistance in insects. Even if you restrict evolution to mean speciation, you can find examples of it here and here.

See my link above about “intelligent design”. And a snowflake is very complex, yet I don’t see anyone designing them. Besides, if someone did design the human body and other living creatures, why do so many organisms exhibit poor design?

I apologize for the link-filled nature of this response, but you utilized such a scatter-shot approach that I found it necessary. If you will narrow the focus of your questions, I can produce a more effective reply. But I feel you have much research to do before we can discuss this intelligently.

I guess I shouldn’t be surprised that the same old questions keep recurring from the creationist’s camp. If you are so desperate for a meaning to existence that you must ascribe a literal translation to the 2000 year-old writings of sheepherders, can independent thought even be possible?

I can’t resist a little more commentary on Raven255’s knowledge of thermodynamics:

A reasonable approximation, but not techically correct. The Second Law states that the total entropy inside a system plus any flux of entropy across the boundary remains the same or increases. Energy flux across a boundary is one way of moving entropy around, and the Second Law does not prohibit rearrangement of entropy within the system; it only discusses the overall entropy of the system.

Eventually, yes, but we have no reason to beleive that this is required by or a manifestation of tehrmodynamics. Human beings, for example, start as one cell and become tremendously larger and more organized systems; by your interpretation, this should be prohibited by the Second Law.

[/quote]
Also, the universe in total is a closed system. To say that the chaos of the big bang has transformed itself into the human brain with its 120 trillion connections is a clear violation of the SecondLaw.
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No. We have no proof that the Universe is closed in the techical tehrmodynamic sense, but let’s assume that it is. The Second Law then says that the overall entropy of the Universe remains the same or increases, and it most likely increases. But remember that rearrangement of entropy within the system is allowed. The Sun’s entropy is increasing at a gigantic rate, far more than enought to offset the decrease of entropy on Earth.

Moral: don’t do thermodynamics unless you know thermodynamics, and don’t assume that someone who makes claims about thermodynamics has any idea of what she or he is talkign about.

(I’ll supply my qualifications on request).

I don’t see a problem there. The universe exists in a probability field. God exists in an infinite cardinal set.

Libertarian, the point I am trying to make is that if you can imagine an entity existing without a predecessor, you should have no problem with the universe doing so.

Oh, the ignorance…
Let me 'splain…no, there is too much. Let me sum up:

  1. Not every organism that ever lived had a skeleton.
  2. Not every organism which ever lived has been fossilized. Fossilization is a relatively rare process, and there are a number of conditions that must be met in order for an organism to eventually become a fossil. Most organisms decompose when they die, not fossilize.
  3. Speciation is believed to be a fairly rapid event, geologically speaking. As such, one shouldn’t expect to be able to find examples of speciation ‘as it happens’ in the fossil record, especially when one takes Point #2 into account. A true transitional fossil would be very rare.
  4. As for ‘most [fossils being] nearly identical to current instances of the species’, well, that’s simply not true. Because of the time required for fossilization, pretty much every species in the fossil record is now extinct. Or, to put it another way, there are no (or at least very few) instances of fossils being identical to extant species. If, however, you mean ‘why are there examples of groups, e.g., sharks, which don’t appear to have changed much through time?’ the answer is because there were no selective pressures for them to change.
  5. Most of the examples touted by evolutionists are not vertebrates. The vertebrate fossil record is very poor (see points #2 and #3 above). Evolutionary Biologists tend to work primarily with invertebrate fossils, which, by and large, are shells, not bones.
  6. You are obviously unaware of the concept of ‘mosaic evolution.’ Natural selection does not simulatenously influence each and every part of an organism. Different aspects of organisms will change at different rates. Dinosaurs did not ‘suddenly’ become birds; the changes were gradual, and built upon previous changes.
  7. Many evolutionists know about the scarcity of the fossil record. A cursory knowledge of how fossilization works will show that fossilization is more likely in certain cases than others (e.g., around water). Simple statistics will show that if you have a given population of fossils, it is most likely that these are ‘average’ examples of the species, not examples from the ends of the curve (e.g., the ‘transitional forms’).
  8. The fact that trilobite fossils are common means there were a butt-load of trilobites (and there were more than just one species of trilobite), and they lived in an environment that was conducive to fossilization. Refer to points #2, #3 and #7 above for an explanation as to the scarcity of ‘trilobite predecessors’.

Hmmm. This thread seesm to have brought up a couple questions for me:

  1. How can we say that the first Homo Sapiens Sapiens appeared around 120,000 years ago? Wouldn’t it be more accurate to say that the earliest fossil evidence we have of a creature that seems to match Homo Sapiens Sapiens dates to around 120,000 years ago? That’s certainly not saying the same thing. Without DNA evidence to match, aren’t we still fudging a bit?

  2. On the question of the origin of reproduction: a) what do we consider to be the first/most basic form of life? b) wouldn’t this organism need to have reproductive capabilities at the start, so that the simplest form of reproduction did not evolve later, but was initially present? Otherwise the “first life” would die and we’d be back at square one… What constituted this first reproductive mechanism?

But the universe does present a problem. There is an event coordinate called “time”. That’s a problem. Unlike the spiritual metaphysic, which is cardinal, the natural metaphysic is ordinal. Recall that one plus one does not equal two without a key axiom: every natural number (and zero) has a successor. Successors imply predecessors.

I’m afraid you have the cart before the horse here. Time, at least according to the current cosmological models, is an artifact of the universe itself. In this sense, there is no need to have a “cause” for the universe because causality does not apply.

Therefore the “natural metaphysic” is irrelevant to the origins of the universe, and its ordinality is not a problem.

gEEk

Thanks, gEEk, for the simple and eloquent explanation.

While I am certainly no creationist, I think I see a slight flaw in our Creationist Thumpin’ Snare here. We have not examined the parameters for “evidence against evolution.” Before we begin to decry the absence of the beast, let us decide what the beast might look like, were it chewing on our ass.

Please describe the observable, concrete, and describable phenomenon that you would accept as “evidence against evolution.” Note that I do not describe philosophies, logical arguments, impassioned prayers, or ritualistic mantras. I want to know what the scientifically oriented among us would consider to be evidence against evolution.

Having the beast then firmly in our sight, we might better attempt to tame it. Before accomplishing such a thing, we are all swinging empty nets at words and wishes.

Tris

This is more-or-less the question I was hoping to have answered in my original post, though Tris worded it much more eloquently than I (cheers for that). I think that the scientifically-inclined among us should be able to provide examples of the kinds of evidence we would expect to find if evolution did not happen. For example, we wouldn’t expect to find fossils neatly arranged into geological strata based on their age as described and predicted by evolution. Or to provide a more specific example, we might see humans, brachiosaurs and trilobites within the same layers of rock. If fossils weren’t found in such a specific order, the theory of evolution just wouldn’t fly.

What I’m really trying to get at is that if evolution didn’t occur, we’d expect to see contradictory evidence everywhere. The fact that we don’t seem to be able to find any tends to lend a huge measure of credibility to evolution by natural selection.

Paul Yeah

If evolution were not true, we would see a very different pattern when we tried to compare genes across species. For example, there would be no difference in the rate of silent vs non-silent mutations, and we wouldn’t see the kind of phylogenetic trees like we see now.

What you would see depends on what sort of process were operating in its place. For example, some creationists explain protein homology on the grounds that “similar organisms need similar proteins.” If creationism were true, we might find that similar organisms did indeed have similar proteins. More likely, we would find nearly 100% sequence conservation, since God would use the same hemoglobin to serve the same purpose across all species. We would also see unique proteins created for unique purposes- nothing like lens crystallins, which evolved from an aldolase, or the six domains of gelsolin, which are evolutionarily related and have the same fold, but which serve different purposes.

You can go on and on in this vein. If evolution were false (and intelligent design/creationism were true,) you wouldn’t see transposons at the same places in apes and humans, and no species would have pseudogenes. There would be no such thing as segregational load, as I mentioned before. You could even argue that a divinely designed biochemistry would be fundamentally different, since each molecule would be uniquely designed for its task, rather than being chosen on the basis of availability in other biological processes or the primordial soup. Think of adenine- it’s used in DNA, in ATP, in S-adenosyl methionine, etc., etc. While you could argue that God would create molecules of redundant function, you still wouldn’t see “molecular fossils” in which one particular molecule is used over and over again, and you also probably wouldn’t have rRNA and tRNA, since those are most likely holdovers from RNA world.

As for what sort of evidence would disprove evolution right now, that’s a hard one. What sort of evidence would prove that the earth is flat, now that we have photos of the earth from space? You can’t answer the question in a vacuum; you’d need to know what sort of theory was being put forth to better explain all the apparent evidence for a round earth. Perhaps Raven can help us in this regard, by explaining away all the biochemical evidence I just listed?

-Ben

Mauve Dog wrote:

How many chambers does the heart of a Lungfish have?

Two, one ventricle and one atrium. However, both are partially divided by partial septa. (I’m getting this from a Britannica online article on the evolution of the heart-lung system.)

-Ben

I honestly don’t think that evolution can be disproved. Its just like the theory of universal gravitation can’t be disproved. There are no examples in modern science where theories based on so much observation have been tossed out in entirety. We are still trying to work the details out in evolution, just like we are still trying to work the details out in universal gravitation.

We’ve seen species change. We’ve seen speciation. See the talk.origins FAQ posted earlier. In science, we can’t deny that, so we need a theory to explain it. Evolution, a theory, ties together all the observations. Of course, observation can’t be used as a proof (proof by deduction can’t work in science) but denying evolution is throwing out 99.99% of the evidence.

[IMHO]
Evolution will eventually be accepted by most everyone. In antiquity, humans had the perspective that the earth was the center of the universe because that is all they saw. Heliocentrism, over hundreds of years, took hold, and humans now operate with the fact that there is a lot going on in the universe that isn’t on the planet. Evolution is going to be the same way – we have the perspective of only +/- one generation now, as that is what we live. As evolution becomes part of general understanding, we will see that life on this planet moves at a much slower and grander pace than we can ever truly appreciate in one generation.
[/IMHO]

This issue has already been addressed, by Mauve Dog, and perhaps others. But I would still like a clearer, yes or no answer.

Are the vast majority of fossils that have been found clustered into clearly indentifiable species or sub-species, or not? In other words, if you took every fossil ever found, and lined them up in the order that they are believed to have evolved from one another, would they occupy a continous spectrum? Or would they be clustered at specific points of the spectrum?