Where's the line between advising someone to take steps to protect themselves and victim-blaming?

[Slash1972]

@Kearsen1

1 in 6 women have been sexually assaulted
1 in 33 men have

That is the only one that matters. If you create an opportunity to increase or decrease that probability, then I would advice that you decrease it.

That’s the only crime statistic that matters to you when faced with giving advice to your son and daughter?

That’s strange. I’m also worried about non-sexual assault, murder, robbery, etc.

[iiandyiiii]

@Kearsen1

1 in 6 women have been sexually assaulted
1 in 33 men have

That is the only one that matters. If you create an opportunity to increase or decrease that probability, then I would advice that you decrease it.

The idea that “that is the only one that matters” is a representation of the shitty place we’re in as a society. These statistics are the fault of assaulters and rapists, and of the society that makes it so easy to get away with sexual assault and rape (as well as even encouraging/tolerating/excusing rape and sexual assault). The focus should be on changing the ways our society makes it so easy for rapists, not on teeny-tiny ways that women might (or might not!) minutely affect their statistical chances of being attacked.

[Slash1972]

@MandaJo

I concur. The amount of pressure I get as a woman not to “foolishly put myself at risk” by doing things that are totally normal for 14-year old boys is incredible.

In your experience, would you say that pressure comes more from other women, more from men, or mostly the same?

[iiandyiiii]

@Slash1972

In your experience, would you say that pressure comes more from other women, more from men, or mostly the same?

Why would this matter?

[Slash1972]

@iiandyiiii

Why would this matter?

It doesn’t matter. I’m curious about her experience.

[iiandyiiii]

@Slash1972

It doesn’t matter. I’m curious about her experience.

Fair enough. I’m glad you say that – this problem is about society much more than individual biases, preferences, or issues.

[Slash1972]

@iiandyiiii

Fair enough. I’m glad you say that – this problem is about society much more than individual biases, preferences, or issues.

Sure, but “society” doesn’t have an account here to ask

[monstro]

@MandaJo

I concur. The amount of pressure I get as a woman not to “foolishly put myself at risk” by doing things that are totally normal for 14-year old boys is incredible.

I am fortunate that I have a very snobby and judgy mind. It keeps me from absorbing any of that pressure. It is always clear to me that the women applying this pressure engage in their own risky behaviors they choose to ignore.

I had one woman lecture me on how dangerous it is me to walk to and from work (six miles) everyday. She is morbidly obese and can’t walk to her car without getting winded. On top of that she spends two hours in her car every day since she lives out in the boonies. And I am supposed to be the one living recklessly? I have never been sermonized to by a woman I would want to model my life after. It always seem to be the most basic women who go around talking about how dangerous everything and everyone else.

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[Annie-Xmas]

I live in a bad part of town. I’ve had people tell me it’s too dangerous to walk the two blocks from the local bus stop to my house. And if I take the highway bus and walk the ten blocks in the dark I’m “asking for it.”

And jaws drop when I tell them I sometimes walk the entire distance from work to home (about 5 miles) after dark.

[GreysonCarlisle]

@Shodan

Well, no, it does actually say something about their ability to protect their young (and to hunt). It says that they are less able to do so than a larger male.

Males in the animal world tend to get involved in the big flashy fights. Two males battling for a female or a male driving off the occasional predator. Same for hunting. You’ll see the males taking down some especially large prey.

But that’s pretty rare. Most of the everyday hunting is done by the females. Because they are so much better at it than the males.

[MandaJo]

@Kearsen1

1 in 6 women have been sexually assaulted
1 in 33 men have

That is the only one that matters. If you create an opportunity to increase or decrease that probability, then I would advice that you decrease it.

But the vast majority of that happens at home or at work or with other people they know. Statistically, women are safer walking at night alone most places than staying in their own home–not just from rape, but all sorts of violent assault.

You didn’t respond about your daughter’s professional opportunities. Are there things you’d advise you daughter not to risk but not your son?

@Slash1972

In your experience, would you say that pressure comes more from other women, more from men, or mostly the same?

Both. Female pressure is more likely to be from strangers, co-workers, friends and acquaintances, and male pressure from family. I think that’s likely a common pattern. I think the women who apply that pressure are repeating a message they heard from male as well as female relatives. It’s a society-wide thing. Femininity itself is tied to being afraid: to not be afraid is literally to betray your sexual identity.

[Shodan]

@margin

Then if women are so small and weak men need to take their fears extra-seriously and punish much larger people who attack them, right?

Absolutely. Rape should be against the law. Those convicted of it should be punished to the full extent of the law. Rapists should serve, on average, about twice as long as for assault or negligent manslaugher (pdf).

Also see my previous cite. The authors of that study were pleased to label chivalry and a desire to protect women as “benign sexism”, but women seem to prefer men who value their fears extra-seriously. Go figure.

Womens’ smaller size and alleged frailty has for years----no, millenia---- been an excuse to restrict theirrights but never to ask why it’s okay for men to kill them with pregnancies or work them to death in factories and fields and subject them to corsets and foot-binding and backbreaking labor outside of a very small group of rich chattel wives. Nobody cared when female slaves were raped into repeated pregnancies and forced to perform hard labor in the fields.

I don’t think it’s accurate to say that no one ever asked if it was okay for women to die in pregnancy or childbirth or to wear corsets. And I seem to remember learning about a war that resulted when we decided that we did care about slaves.

One half of the human race still demands that the other half not wear spaghetti straps in schools because they might be “distracting”. Meanwhile, men get to amble around shirtless without anybody batting an eye.

Men are shirtless in schools? I am gonna need a cite for that.

Regards,
Shodan

[Slash1972]

@MandaJo

Both. Female pressure is more likely to be from strangers, co-workers, friends and acquaintances, and male pressure from family. I think that’s likely a common pattern. I think the women who apply that pressure are repeating a message they heard from male as well as female relatives. It’s a society-wide thing. Femininity itself is tied to being afraid: to not be afraid is literally to betray your sexual identity.

Thank you for your answers.

[monstro]

@Shodan

And I seem to remember learning about a war that resulted when we decided that we did care about slaves.

You mean the slaves that we enslaved?

Gotta love the passive voice here. The war wasn’t one we fought to preserve our slaves. It just “resulted” from our collective enlightenment.

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[QuickSilver]

@Shodan

Well, no, it does actually say something about their ability to protect their young (and to hunt). It says that they are less able to do so than a larger male.

Regards,
Shodan

Which has what exact relevance on the topic at hand? That women are weaker than men, therefore it’s little wonder they more often fall victim to predatory men, and therefore any reasonable expectation that they may have to be safe from aggressive men is, what… wishful thinking?

What are you even talking about?

[puddleglum]

@monstro

While this disadvantage certainly exists, social norms only entrench it by teaching women they are frail and helpless. No, a woman is probably not going to be able to tackle a guy down to the ground if he is determined to harm her. But a woman can inflict enough damage to distract him long enough to escape. She can be trained to scream her head off. She can be trained how to use her smaller size as an advantage.

But instead of telling women they are strong and endowed with the same instincts that men have (and are encouraged to hone), we tell them they are weak. Not relatively weak, but objectively weak. And then we they act weak and helpless, we tell ourselves it must be the hormones and genes rather than socialization.

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So any woman can inflict enough damage to distract a rapist long enough to escape? Does mean the all rape victims could have avoided it if social norms were different?

Should we try to change social norms to teach women to resist and scream?

[QuickSilver]

@Shodan

Men are shirtless in schools? I am gonna need a cite for that.

Regards,
Shodan

Never had a gym class with shirts v. skins? Or do you need a cite for that?

[monstro]

@puddleglum

So any woman can inflict enough damage to distract a rapist long enough to escape?

Can any man inflict enough damage to distract a rapist who attacks them?

Oddly enough, we don’t use the fact that few men are built like Arnold Schwarzenegger to brainwash men into thinking they shouldn’t go outside alone. We still encourage men to take risks despite their infallibility. We don’t constantly tell them they have zero chance against the monsters lurking in the bushes. Because we don’t want our little boys to grow up to be wimps.

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[Kearsen1]

@MandaJo

But the vast majority of that happens at home or at work or with other people they know. Statistically, women are safer walking at night alone most places than staying in their own home–not just from rape, but all sorts of violent assault.

You didn’t respond about your daughter’s professional opportunities. Are there things you’d advise you daughter not to risk but not your son?

Both. Female pressure is more likely to be from strangers, co-workers, friends and acquaintances, and male pressure from family. I think that’s likely a common pattern. I think the women who apply that pressure are repeating a message they heard from male as well as female relatives. It’s a society-wide thing. Femininity itself is tied to being afraid: to not be afraid is literally to betray your sexual identity.

I answered you in the post you quoted about my daughter’s professional opportunities. No real difference betwixt the two gender children.
I’d caution them both to be aware of where and whom they interact.

[Kearsen1]

@monstro

Can any man inflict enough damage to distract a rapist who attacks them?

Oddly enough, we don’t use the fact that few men are built like Arnold Schwarzenegger to brainwash men into thinking they shouldn’t go outside alone. We still encourage men to take risks despite their infallibility. We don’t constantly tell them they have zero chance against the monsters lurking in the bushes. Because we don’t want our little boys to grow up to be wimps.

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I think there is an argument in there but I can’t see past the straw. We don’t tell ANYONE that they have no chance vs a rapist.
But there is more of a chance of fighting off a rapist when the person is a man.

I think some folks are in such a rush to create an equality of sexes that they throw physical attributes right out the window. It happened in the military and the trend continues here.

No one wants their daughters to grow up to be wimps, just to be aware and take whatever precautions they deem prudent. Lot’s of women find the very things that you are railing against to be prudent. (I agree with them)